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today's guest is diana walsh pasulka

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diana pasulka is a professor of

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religious studies at the university of

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north carolina wilmington and the chair

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of the department of philosophy and

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religion she's also the author of

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american cosmos which explores the

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connection between religion and

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technology while also disproving the

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common misconception that only fringe

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members of society believe that the

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phenomenon has some non-terrain reality

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behind it in this episode we focus

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heavily on religion and philosophy a

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rather technical dive into certain

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philosophies as well as how us humans

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deal with unexplainable experiences my

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name is kirche mungle and i'm a

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filmmaker slash podcaster slash person

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investigating theories of everything

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from a theoretical physics perspective

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but as well as understanding the

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philosophies of consciousness and what

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role consciousness has to fundamental

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reality recently there's been a video

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released on this channel called a crash

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course on theoretical physics which was

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the longest time that i've spent on any

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single video on this channel if you're

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interested in salvator pius's ideas on

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quantum gravity or extra dimensions or

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what it means when a physicist

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quote-unquote sets c to equal one to

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equal h-bar then do consider watching

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that as it's the lesson that i wish i

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had when i was going to university by

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the way my background is in mathematical

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physics and the math in this video is

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aimed at the high school level there are

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plenty of myths in physics that are

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dispelled there as well as well as

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general tips on learning mathematics and

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physics feel free to share that to

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someone who's interested in physics and

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mathematics this work was only able to

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be done because of brilliant and the

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patrons now with regard to brilliant

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they're the sponsor of this episode

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brilliant is a website and an app that

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has interactive learning experiences

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with regard to math science and

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engineering they have lessons on

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information theory on group theory and

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special relativity group theory by the

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way is what's being referenced when you

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hear that the standard models quote

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unquote internal gauge symmetries are u1

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cross su 2 crosses su 3 and so on at

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some point soon i'll be speaking to

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chiara marletto on constructor theory

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and that is heavily predicated on

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information theory and so i took

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brilliance course and it made it

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extremely lucid why the formula for

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entropy is the way that it is visit

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brilliant.org toe to get 20 off the

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annual subscription i recommend you

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don't stop before at least four lessons

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and i think you'll be greatly surprised

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at the ease at which you now can

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comprehend subjects you previously had a

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difficult time grocking now if you enjoy

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witnessing and engaging in real-time

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conversation with others on the topics

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of consciousness psychology physics

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religion then check out the description

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for a link to the theories of everything

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discord and subreddit there's also a

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link to the patreon that is

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patreon.com if you'd like to support

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this podcast as the patrons and the

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sponsors are the only reason that i'm

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able to put out videos of this quality

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and this depth such as the crash course

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on theoretical physics as this is what

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i'm now able to do full-time thanks to

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your support

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thank you and enjoy

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professor why don't you go over what

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american cosmic is and i believe you

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said that you have

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changed from being a non-believer in the

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quote-unquote phenomenon to taking more

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of a stance of an agnostic believer so

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what's responsible for that change

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sure

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so i started the research into this i'm

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a professor of religious studies and um

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just to give your listeners an

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understanding of what we do in religious

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studies because a lot of people think

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we're like ministers and stuff we're not

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so we're academics and scholars and it's

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an interdisciplinary field so we come at

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religion with um

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different tools like art basically

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archaeology sociology history you know

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whatever we can use to understand

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the impact and effects of religion on

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populations

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and um

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my field has been catholic history and

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looking at

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basically catholic history right um

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european catholic history when you say

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catholic history here's another thing

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that your listeners should know is that

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that's huge

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you know there are billions of catholics

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all over the world and so you know one

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person can't know all of that history so

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we focus as well so we're really focused

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generally um i've been looking at

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extraordinary things within catholic

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history and in catholic history there

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are saints who are said to have

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levitated

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and bilocated and things like that so

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i've been looking at that i've been

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looking at dogmas in catholic history

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how dogmas of religion are formed and

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then go away and so these are the things

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that i've been doing

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almost my whole life and

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certainly as a professor

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so

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after writing a book about the dogma of

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purgatory which is a belief in

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catholicism which is a place where souls

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go after they die they don't go to hell

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but they also don't go to heaven so they

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go to this place called purgatory where

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they purge their sins supposedly and

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then you know then um they're one with

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god so this is a belief that ran a

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practice that was within catholic

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history for a long time so i did a

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survey of this and

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um

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you're right i was an atheist with

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respect to ufos um never thought of them

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never believed in them um i was

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as many people were

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and i

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on the edge of scoffing at people who

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said oh i saw a ufo you know it's like

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right you really saw a ufo and so

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um

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so no i never ever thought i would be

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doing this kind of study um but what

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happened was that in 2011 and 2012 i i

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had been finished with this book and

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moving on to some new research in

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catholic history obviously but what i

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had was i had been going through

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archives which are really old libraries

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of things from like hundreds of years

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ago and i'd been putting together

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basically reports um catholics have

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always taken great notes and they have

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records and

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um they have chronicles and things like

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that from a thousand years ago or more

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and so i'd been looking at these

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and i was making an uh a note basically

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of things that i couldn't really fit

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into

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basically that were strange in my

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opinion i thought what are these things

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so we're talking about orbs of light

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things that are aerial phenomena um orbs

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that that penetrate walls um

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you know things that

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uh like move like houses in the air you

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know these kinds of reports and the

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people that were making these reports

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today we'd call them like reliable

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witnesses you know they were usually um

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part of the catholic hierarchy they were

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um nuns or brothers you know scholars

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um people like this mayors of towns what

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was it about these reports in particular

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that stood out because i'm sure there

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are many reports by many religious

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people about extraordinary events so was

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there something in particular or are you

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studying any abnormal aberration from

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reality no at this at this point i was

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just focused on what happened to the

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practice the catholic doctrine and

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practice of purgatory you know prior to

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the 1960s uh you could go to any

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catholic church and there would be a

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place where you would pray for souls in

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purgatory and that's just not the case

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now and in fact if you asked your

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friends who are catholic you know hey

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what about purgatory they wouldn't know

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what you were talking about so i was

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looking at what why did this dogma

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disappear basically and so when i was i

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was looking at these reports i would

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come to reports of

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basically here's here's one that i had

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in my book on purgatory it was in the

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1800s and it was this nun in france and

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she would continually see

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an orb of light come through penetrate

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her cell wall where you know she lived

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and basically kind of hang out

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you know i thought you met her cell

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walls

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how could she see that oh my gosh this

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that would be really weird yeah no where

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she was she was in a convent and so this

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ball of light would come and she was

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afraid of it and she'd tell the people

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in her convent and nobody really

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believed there first then finally

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the mother superior came and stayed the

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night in her you know room and

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she saw also so they interpreted this as

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a soul from purgatory and then they did

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it they prayed it away they tried to

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pray it away and so these are the kinds

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of reports that i was identifying in all

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of these these um you know lots of

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different like chronicles you know these

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kinds of sources it was unsuccessful

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they're praying away was their prayer

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unsuccessful and that's a good question

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was it it apparently was

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so was successful or unsuccessful it

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appears to be because there was no more

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report okay so i assumed that it was

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successful

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i think

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yeah

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so okay so um

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yeah

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so i had a list of these things and i

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didn't include them in my purgatory book

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just one or two of them because i

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thought well the frameworks are so

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strange for you know how people

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interpreted these things

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and i didn't quite understand what to do

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with this big list of reports

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so i was going to move on to another

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book

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and i happened to show a friend of mine

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these reports and i said what do you

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think of this stuff and the friend

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looked at them and said they look like

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steven spielberg movies you know like

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ufos and i i thought that's crazy um it

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just so happened that there was a

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uh in my town there was a ufo conference

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so i went to the conference and i

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listened to people who had experiences

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with aerial phenomena and the

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inhabitants of aerial phenomenon

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allegedly right and so it sounded so

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much like what i've been studying that i

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decided to turn my attention to

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making kind of like this comparison

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which is not you're not supposed to do

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in my field but i did it anyway i wanted

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00:09:58,790 --> 00:09:56,560
to see if there was kind of this

280
00:10:01,190 --> 00:09:58,800
continuity between these reports from

281
00:10:03,190 --> 00:10:01,200
historic you know history back at least

282
00:10:05,350 --> 00:10:03,200
catholic history to today

283
00:10:07,670 --> 00:10:05,360
and um that's how i started now of

284
00:10:12,150 --> 00:10:07,680
course the book became completely

285
00:10:13,030 --> 00:10:12,160
different than i had intended um

286
00:10:15,030 --> 00:10:13,040
so

287
00:10:16,150 --> 00:10:15,040
that's how i started now the book itself

288
00:10:20,150 --> 00:10:16,160
what happened when i got into the

289
00:10:22,870 --> 00:10:20,160
research was that i didn't just find out

290
00:10:25,269 --> 00:10:22,880
information about people who had these

291
00:10:26,870 --> 00:10:25,279
experiences i also found out that there

292
00:10:28,630 --> 00:10:26,880
were secret programs that our government

293
00:10:31,509 --> 00:10:28,640
was engaged in this is before it came

294
00:10:34,150 --> 00:10:31,519
out in the new york times and i met them

295
00:10:36,470 --> 00:10:34,160
and i followed them around and they they

296
00:10:39,190 --> 00:10:36,480
actually invited me on you know

297
00:10:41,110 --> 00:10:39,200
excursions like to new mexico uh to find

298
00:10:43,350 --> 00:10:41,120
debris from crash saucers and things

299
00:10:45,350 --> 00:10:43,360
like that i mean it was pretty wacky i

300
00:10:47,750 --> 00:10:45,360
thought it was really strange and i was

301
00:10:49,750 --> 00:10:47,760
still an atheist when i was writing

302
00:10:51,910 --> 00:10:49,760
the book it was until the very end this

303
00:10:53,269 --> 00:10:51,920
took me a few years right it took me

304
00:10:57,350 --> 00:10:53,279
years to get through

305
00:10:59,430 --> 00:10:57,360
and we're now in 2022. um in 2019 the

306
00:11:01,190 --> 00:10:59,440
book was published it was done in late

307
00:11:03,509 --> 00:11:01,200
2017

308
00:11:05,670 --> 00:11:03,519
and so how many years is that that's

309
00:11:06,710 --> 00:11:05,680
like you know six years of my life that

310
00:11:08,710 --> 00:11:06,720
i spent

311
00:11:10,710 --> 00:11:08,720
and during that time period i went from

312
00:11:12,230 --> 00:11:10,720
moving from an atheist

313
00:11:13,670 --> 00:11:12,240
and a scoffer

314
00:11:17,430 --> 00:11:13,680
to

315
00:11:19,269 --> 00:11:17,440
what the heck is going on here agnostic

316
00:11:21,750 --> 00:11:19,279
what are beliefs

317
00:11:23,509 --> 00:11:21,760
okay so in our field so beliefs if you

318
00:11:24,470 --> 00:11:23,519
ask a different like if you ask a

319
00:11:26,790 --> 00:11:24,480
philosopher they're gonna have a

320
00:11:30,389 --> 00:11:26,800
different definition uh but beliefs in

321
00:11:32,310 --> 00:11:30,399
our field are basically practices

322
00:11:33,990 --> 00:11:32,320
and behaviors and

323
00:11:36,870 --> 00:11:34,000
expectations

324
00:11:38,710 --> 00:11:36,880
of basically phenomena like events that

325
00:11:41,030 --> 00:11:38,720
are going to happen like i have a belief

326
00:11:44,310 --> 00:11:41,040
that the sun will rise tomorrow

327
00:11:46,310 --> 00:11:44,320
okay now belief beliefs don't actually

328
00:11:48,470 --> 00:11:46,320
they can or they cannot correspond with

329
00:11:50,710 --> 00:11:48,480
what we call objective reality so

330
00:11:52,710 --> 00:11:50,720
tomorrow the sun will most likely rise

331
00:11:54,790 --> 00:11:52,720
and then my belief will be true but it

332
00:11:56,949 --> 00:11:54,800
doesn't necessarily have to be true so

333
00:11:58,550 --> 00:11:56,959
it's like i can have a false belief

334
00:12:00,470 --> 00:11:58,560
so in our field that's how we define

335
00:12:03,110 --> 00:12:00,480
beliefs

336
00:12:05,430 --> 00:12:03,120
so you said that it's practice so some

337
00:12:07,190 --> 00:12:05,440
form of action but also expectations so

338
00:12:09,110 --> 00:12:07,200
the expectation to me sounds cognitive

339
00:12:10,629 --> 00:12:09,120
whereas the other one sounds embodied

340
00:12:13,590 --> 00:12:10,639
and does that mean that one can have a

341
00:12:15,509 --> 00:12:13,600
belief and not know what their belief is

342
00:12:17,430 --> 00:12:15,519
oh definitely you can have unconscious

343
00:12:19,030 --> 00:12:17,440
beliefs

344
00:12:20,310 --> 00:12:19,040
yeah

345
00:12:22,470 --> 00:12:20,320
i'm sure you've heard some people say

346
00:12:25,269 --> 00:12:22,480
this that atheists

347
00:12:27,430 --> 00:12:25,279
at least the well-behaved ones are not

348
00:12:29,750 --> 00:12:27,440
disbelievers in god because they act as

349
00:12:31,350 --> 00:12:29,760
if god exists god implies an ethic which

350
00:12:33,030 --> 00:12:31,360
endows people with uh

351
00:12:35,030 --> 00:12:33,040
inviolable quality with respect to their

352
00:12:36,550 --> 00:12:35,040
life and so on so what do you make of

353
00:12:38,470 --> 00:12:36,560
this claim

354
00:12:40,550 --> 00:12:38,480
about atheism

355
00:12:43,190 --> 00:12:40,560
about atheists are not even though they

356
00:12:44,949 --> 00:12:43,200
can proclaim atheism that they don't

357
00:12:46,790 --> 00:12:44,959
necessarily believe it in the sense that

358
00:12:49,030 --> 00:12:46,800
their actions belie their words

359
00:12:51,110 --> 00:12:49,040
okay so

360
00:12:53,910 --> 00:12:51,120
all right let's let's first figure out

361
00:12:57,190 --> 00:12:53,920
what we mean by religion okay and theism

362
00:12:59,030 --> 00:12:57,200
and things like that so okay for people

363
00:13:01,750 --> 00:12:59,040
who study religion

364
00:13:04,829 --> 00:13:01,760
when we think of somebody who is say a

365
00:13:08,310 --> 00:13:04,839
well-known atheist like dawkins all

366
00:13:12,710 --> 00:13:10,470
we think that he doesn't actually he's

367
00:13:14,389 --> 00:13:12,720
not had a good religious studies course

368
00:13:16,550 --> 00:13:14,399
right and this is why we think that

369
00:13:18,790 --> 00:13:16,560
because when we start by teaching

370
00:13:21,030 --> 00:13:18,800
undergraduates what religion is we start

371
00:13:23,430 --> 00:13:21,040
by saying what you think first of all

372
00:13:25,829 --> 00:13:23,440
religion is a made-up term okay some

373
00:13:27,430 --> 00:13:25,839
there are some

374
00:13:29,670 --> 00:13:27,440
societies that don't even have a term

375
00:13:31,110 --> 00:13:29,680
for religion okay a lot of indigenous

376
00:13:32,629 --> 00:13:31,120
spiritualities

377
00:13:34,470 --> 00:13:32,639
don't even

378
00:13:36,230 --> 00:13:34,480
think about religion so religion is

379
00:13:38,790 --> 00:13:36,240
something that was created

380
00:13:40,389 --> 00:13:38,800
um in order to identify

381
00:13:42,710 --> 00:13:40,399
something now

382
00:13:45,990 --> 00:13:42,720
generally the people that created this

383
00:13:47,990 --> 00:13:46,000
term these people came from um european

384
00:13:50,790 --> 00:13:48,000
culture so to them religion looked like

385
00:13:52,629 --> 00:13:50,800
christianity okay so christianity what

386
00:13:55,670 --> 00:13:52,639
are the components of it well you have

387
00:13:58,150 --> 00:13:55,680
like a god and you have um

388
00:13:59,750 --> 00:13:58,160
jesus right this person um and you've

389
00:14:01,590 --> 00:13:59,760
got these sets of beliefs and practices

390
00:14:03,590 --> 00:14:01,600
which by the way are very very different

391
00:14:04,949 --> 00:14:03,600
from one another there are over i

392
00:14:07,269 --> 00:14:04,959
believe there are over 10 000

393
00:14:09,189 --> 00:14:07,279
denominations of christianity so that's

394
00:14:11,509 --> 00:14:09,199
a lot and they look very different from

395
00:14:13,030 --> 00:14:11,519
one another so one of the exercises that

396
00:14:15,590 --> 00:14:13,040
i have in my class

397
00:14:19,990 --> 00:14:15,600
is i show students

398
00:14:22,069 --> 00:14:20,000
um a video of an ethiopian

399
00:14:24,629 --> 00:14:22,079
mass which is like a service a church

400
00:14:27,030 --> 00:14:24,639
service and then i show them but i don't

401
00:14:29,030 --> 00:14:27,040
tell them what it is i say look at this

402
00:14:31,829 --> 00:14:29,040
and then i show them another service

403
00:14:34,629 --> 00:14:31,839
it's a southern baptist service and i

404
00:14:36,230 --> 00:14:34,639
say are these two services similar and

405
00:14:38,470 --> 00:14:36,240
they say no they're so different right

406
00:14:40,790 --> 00:14:38,480
one has like incense and chanting and

407
00:14:44,310 --> 00:14:40,800
the other has you know someone's talking

408
00:14:45,910 --> 00:14:44,320
and people kind of praying and um and

409
00:14:47,430 --> 00:14:45,920
they look very different and so i say

410
00:14:49,670 --> 00:14:47,440
these these are both christian

411
00:14:51,750 --> 00:14:49,680
denominations this is christianity right

412
00:14:54,150 --> 00:14:51,760
here and it's hard for them to believe

413
00:14:55,590 --> 00:14:54,160
because they they look so different so

414
00:14:58,470 --> 00:14:55,600
if we're talking about religion there

415
00:15:01,269 --> 00:14:58,480
are some religions like buddhism that

416
00:15:04,230 --> 00:15:01,279
have no idea of a god right there's no

417
00:15:06,069 --> 00:15:04,240
god like a christian god in buddhism and

418
00:15:07,509 --> 00:15:06,079
even certain denominations of buddhism

419
00:15:08,949 --> 00:15:07,519
they look very different from one

420
00:15:11,590 --> 00:15:08,959
another

421
00:15:14,069 --> 00:15:11,600
zen or chan buddhism looks way different

422
00:15:16,230 --> 00:15:14,079
than thai buddhism theravada buddhism

423
00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:16,240
okay so um all right so the question

424
00:15:19,430 --> 00:15:17,760
that you have is

425
00:15:21,110 --> 00:15:19,440
again let's talk about atheists too

426
00:15:23,350 --> 00:15:21,120
because atheists are different as well

427
00:15:26,150 --> 00:15:23,360
so dawkins has an idea kind of what i

428
00:15:28,470 --> 00:15:26,160
would call a straw man idea of religion

429
00:15:30,470 --> 00:15:28,480
in that it's easy to

430
00:15:32,550 --> 00:15:30,480
look at religion in that way and say

431
00:15:34,230 --> 00:15:32,560
well of course the beliefs are incorrect

432
00:15:36,629 --> 00:15:34,240
and you know there's contradictions all

433
00:15:41,670 --> 00:15:36,639
over the sacred texts and these kinds of

434
00:15:43,030 --> 00:15:41,680
things but that's just that's not even a

435
00:15:45,350 --> 00:15:43,040
a definition that we would use of

436
00:15:47,750 --> 00:15:45,360
religion because that's a strong man

437
00:15:50,150 --> 00:15:47,760
representation of religion so this so

438
00:15:52,470 --> 00:15:50,160
the question you're asking me is

439
00:15:54,629 --> 00:15:52,480
atheists are already assuming they're

440
00:15:56,629 --> 00:15:54,639
gonna like wake up the next day and be

441
00:15:59,509 --> 00:15:56,639
alive and they're already assuming these

442
00:16:01,350 --> 00:15:59,519
things that christians would say god or

443
00:16:03,749 --> 00:16:01,360
some religious people religious

444
00:16:05,430 --> 00:16:03,759
traditions would say have been gifts to

445
00:16:07,030 --> 00:16:05,440
humans right like life and that kind of

446
00:16:08,550 --> 00:16:07,040
thing is that what you're asking me i

447
00:16:10,550 --> 00:16:08,560
guess instead of going back to the same

448
00:16:12,629 --> 00:16:10,560
question how about i just play the

449
00:16:15,189 --> 00:16:12,639
atheistic part and say well the atheist

450
00:16:16,310 --> 00:16:15,199
may just say well i'm not believing as

451
00:16:17,749 --> 00:16:16,320
an article of faith that i'm going to

452
00:16:20,470 --> 00:16:17,759
wake up tomorrow i have the evidence

453
00:16:21,590 --> 00:16:20,480
just like you mentioned the sun

454
00:16:24,949 --> 00:16:21,600
yeah

455
00:16:28,150 --> 00:16:24,959
assume that i'm going to be living

456
00:16:29,670 --> 00:16:28,160
tomorrow as well so i believe that i

457
00:16:31,670 --> 00:16:29,680
think that's a correct

458
00:16:33,670 --> 00:16:31,680
um assessment but you have to understand

459
00:16:35,030 --> 00:16:33,680
that i'm also not in it i'm not a person

460
00:16:36,870 --> 00:16:35,040
who's going to advocate belief in

461
00:16:43,189 --> 00:16:36,880
religion

462
00:16:46,710 --> 00:16:43,199
am an advocate though for understanding

463
00:16:48,470 --> 00:16:46,720
what religion is and is not definitely

464
00:16:51,030 --> 00:16:48,480
you know there are fiction there are

465
00:16:53,189 --> 00:16:51,040
fiction-based religions

466
00:16:56,230 --> 00:16:53,199
so there are religions based on movies

467
00:16:59,829 --> 00:16:58,230
are those more satirical or those more i

468
00:17:01,670 --> 00:16:59,839
mean there are satirical religions but

469
00:17:04,949 --> 00:17:01,680
there are some serious religions that

470
00:17:09,110 --> 00:17:04,959
are based on star wars i've met

471
00:17:13,189 --> 00:17:10,470
and they don't believe what they're

472
00:17:15,590 --> 00:17:13,199
doing is a form of being facetious

473
00:17:16,549 --> 00:17:15,600
they're actually no they're having fun

474
00:17:20,789 --> 00:17:16,559
nope

475
00:17:23,829 --> 00:17:20,799
are a lot that don't this this started

476
00:17:26,150 --> 00:17:23,839
in the um early 2000s 2002

477
00:17:28,870 --> 00:17:26,160
and i used this as a

478
00:17:31,190 --> 00:17:28,880
basically as a case to show my students

479
00:17:31,990 --> 00:17:31,200
that religion has a big definition right

480
00:17:33,430 --> 00:17:32,000
so

481
00:17:34,950 --> 00:17:33,440
we're talking about what's called a new

482
00:17:35,750 --> 00:17:34,960
religious movement

483
00:17:37,669 --> 00:17:35,760
okay

484
00:17:40,390 --> 00:17:37,679
and i used to actually

485
00:17:41,990 --> 00:17:40,400
um think that it was going to go away

486
00:17:44,630 --> 00:17:42,000
and i did think it was you know kind of

487
00:17:47,110 --> 00:17:44,640
the spaghetti monster religion that it

488
00:17:51,270 --> 00:17:47,120
was satirical and i think that it began

489
00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:51,280
that way or it began in separate places

490
00:17:55,110 --> 00:17:52,960
by different people

491
00:17:56,950 --> 00:17:55,120
um but it's definitely a religion it's

492
00:17:59,750 --> 00:17:56,960
definitely a cultural development and it

493
00:18:01,990 --> 00:17:59,760
did not go away

494
00:18:03,590 --> 00:18:02,000
is religion merely a mind virus i'm sure

495
00:18:05,990 --> 00:18:03,600
you've heard that term can it be

496
00:18:07,909 --> 00:18:06,000
explained purely memetically

497
00:18:10,070 --> 00:18:07,919
and deleteriously like not one that's

498
00:18:13,190 --> 00:18:10,080
yeah

499
00:18:15,190 --> 00:18:13,200
it's hard to say um i'm still i prom i

500
00:18:17,190 --> 00:18:15,200
promise you i don't know and i'm still

501
00:18:20,870 --> 00:18:17,200
trying to figure it out so i'm still

502
00:18:23,190 --> 00:18:20,880
thinking through it and um i did i have

503
00:18:24,310 --> 00:18:23,200
spoken to some people who are basically

504
00:18:26,390 --> 00:18:24,320
colleagues

505
00:18:29,190 --> 00:18:26,400
and it appears that you know

506
00:18:31,029 --> 00:18:29,200
religion might even predate humans

507
00:18:32,549 --> 00:18:31,039
you know in the sense that

508
00:18:34,230 --> 00:18:32,559
um

509
00:18:36,950 --> 00:18:34,240
proto-hominins

510
00:18:38,310 --> 00:18:36,960
like neanderthals and things like that

511
00:18:40,870 --> 00:18:38,320
when you look at

512
00:18:43,350 --> 00:18:40,880
how they buried each other it appears

513
00:18:45,669 --> 00:18:43,360
that they have some ritualistic like

514
00:18:48,630 --> 00:18:45,679
kind of uh there are some rituals that

515
00:18:50,549 --> 00:18:48,640
were involved that look to be you know

516
00:18:52,070 --> 00:18:50,559
religious when we take the big

517
00:18:54,390 --> 00:18:52,080
definition of religion which i've kind

518
00:18:56,950 --> 00:18:54,400
of talked about so

519
00:18:59,909 --> 00:18:56,960
i don't know i mean i still think that

520
00:19:01,430 --> 00:18:59,919
it's uh an adaptation that we just don't

521
00:19:03,190 --> 00:19:01,440
understand

522
00:19:04,870 --> 00:19:03,200
because you know lots of people said it

523
00:19:06,630 --> 00:19:04,880
was going to go away and that's called

524
00:19:08,710 --> 00:19:06,640
the rationalism thesis you know as

525
00:19:11,830 --> 00:19:08,720
people get more rational religion will

526
00:19:13,029 --> 00:19:11,840
just as a will just go away but there

527
00:19:14,950 --> 00:19:13,039
are more

528
00:19:17,110 --> 00:19:14,960
religious people today than there ever

529
00:19:19,510 --> 00:19:17,120
have been in history so that's obviously

530
00:19:22,470 --> 00:19:19,520
incorrect so there's something that we

531
00:19:24,470 --> 00:19:22,480
need from religion um that seems that

532
00:19:26,630 --> 00:19:24,480
keeps it around

533
00:19:28,470 --> 00:19:26,640
is that rationalism thesis also known as

534
00:19:30,549 --> 00:19:28,480
the secularization thesis or is that a

535
00:19:31,350 --> 00:19:30,559
separate phenomenon no it is it's the

536
00:19:35,590 --> 00:19:31,360
same

537
00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:35,600
far as i know in the western world

538
00:19:38,710 --> 00:19:37,440
atheism is on the rise it's just in

539
00:19:40,630 --> 00:19:38,720
other parts of the world where it's not

540
00:19:41,590 --> 00:19:40,640
is that correct yes i i believe that's

541
00:19:43,830 --> 00:19:41,600
correct

542
00:19:45,990 --> 00:19:43,840
yeah so then in that case would that not

543
00:19:47,909 --> 00:19:46,000
be a testament to the secularization

544
00:19:50,070 --> 00:19:47,919
thesis because it's saying that in these

545
00:19:51,750 --> 00:19:50,080
more in light i know that this is

546
00:19:53,750 --> 00:19:51,760
eurocentric and and i'm going to get

547
00:19:56,310 --> 00:19:53,760
canceled but i'm just i'm strong-manning

548
00:19:57,669 --> 00:19:56,320
for the sake okay

549
00:19:59,029 --> 00:19:57,679
maybe the rationalists are more likely

550
00:20:00,950 --> 00:19:59,039
to say this but in these more

551
00:20:03,430 --> 00:20:00,960
enlightened societies that's where

552
00:20:04,710 --> 00:20:03,440
atheism takes the foothold and it's more

553
00:20:07,510 --> 00:20:04,720
of the something that's akin to a

554
00:20:09,909 --> 00:20:07,520
religious monarchy that the

555
00:20:12,150 --> 00:20:09,919
religions it's mainly through dominance

556
00:20:15,029 --> 00:20:12,160
and so on so why does the growth of

557
00:20:16,870 --> 00:20:15,039
global religion contradict the

558
00:20:18,310 --> 00:20:16,880
secularization thesis

559
00:20:19,029 --> 00:20:18,320
because to me it sounds like well in

560
00:20:20,630 --> 00:20:19,039
this

561
00:20:22,549 --> 00:20:20,640
thesis is saying that in the spots where

562
00:20:24,070 --> 00:20:22,559
we hold the values of the enlightenment

563
00:20:25,510 --> 00:20:24,080
and so on that's where atheism should

564
00:20:27,590 --> 00:20:25,520
take hold all right i think what you're

565
00:20:30,870 --> 00:20:27,600
talking about is a movement called um

566
00:20:32,549 --> 00:20:30,880
where where especially young people um

567
00:20:34,230 --> 00:20:32,559
they basically say that they're not

568
00:20:36,630 --> 00:20:34,240
religious but they might be spiritual

569
00:20:38,470 --> 00:20:36,640
but not religious and these people are

570
00:20:40,909 --> 00:20:38,480
called the nuns and they're called the

571
00:20:42,549 --> 00:20:40,919
nuns they're not n-u-n-s they're

572
00:20:44,630 --> 00:20:42,559
n-o-n-e-s

573
00:20:45,669 --> 00:20:44,640
and they're called that because when

574
00:20:51,350 --> 00:20:45,679
they

575
00:20:54,149 --> 00:20:51,360
religion so we have what's your religion

576
00:20:55,750 --> 00:20:54,159
none right so that's what makes them you

577
00:20:58,470 --> 00:20:55,760
know that's why they're called the nuns

578
00:21:00,710 --> 00:20:58,480
okay so this is definitely on the rise

579
00:21:02,870 --> 00:21:00,720
but the thing about this is that to us

580
00:21:05,350 --> 00:21:02,880
in religious studies it actually does

581
00:21:07,830 --> 00:21:05,360
not look secular because those people

582
00:21:10,390 --> 00:21:07,840
engage in yoga okay and they also

583
00:21:12,230 --> 00:21:10,400
believe in ufos right and so when you

584
00:21:14,149 --> 00:21:12,240
scratch the surface of belief in ufos

585
00:21:15,990 --> 00:21:14,159
you see like you know transcendent

586
00:21:18,070 --> 00:21:16,000
beliefs or beliefs and a transcendence

587
00:21:21,190 --> 00:21:18,080
of you know this um

588
00:21:23,110 --> 00:21:21,200
this advanced tech is somehow salvific

589
00:21:25,510 --> 00:21:23,120
right and things like that or on the

590
00:21:27,270 --> 00:21:25,520
other hand it's very bad you know it's

591
00:21:29,270 --> 00:21:27,280
like kind of evil or something like that

592
00:21:31,830 --> 00:21:29,280
so you do see a lot of themes there that

593
00:21:34,710 --> 00:21:31,840
appear to be religious like so i would

594
00:21:37,270 --> 00:21:34,720
contest that the rise of the nuns is

595
00:21:38,549 --> 00:21:37,280
actually a secularization

596
00:21:41,669 --> 00:21:38,559
um

597
00:21:42,470 --> 00:21:41,679
the rise of atheism i think that as you

598
00:21:44,950 --> 00:21:42,480
know

599
00:21:47,990 --> 00:21:44,960
i mean beliefs change

600
00:21:49,270 --> 00:21:48,000
atheism is something that

601
00:21:51,430 --> 00:21:49,280
um

602
00:21:52,789 --> 00:21:51,440
you know i wouldn't ascribe it i

603
00:21:56,230 --> 00:21:52,799
wouldn't say

604
00:21:58,310 --> 00:21:56,240
atheists are de facto more rational than

605
00:21:59,590 --> 00:21:58,320
religious people that's just not right

606
00:22:00,789 --> 00:21:59,600
that's not true

607
00:22:03,430 --> 00:22:00,799
um

608
00:22:05,830 --> 00:22:03,440
so i wouldn't ascribe the rise of

609
00:22:07,510 --> 00:22:05,840
atheism to the rise of

610
00:22:09,669 --> 00:22:07,520
kind of rationality or something like

611
00:22:11,830 --> 00:22:09,679
that because i know a lot of people who

612
00:22:13,830 --> 00:22:11,840
are

613
00:22:16,390 --> 00:22:13,840
not atheists

614
00:22:18,149 --> 00:22:16,400
they're either agnostic or theists and

615
00:22:20,149 --> 00:22:18,159
are very rational

616
00:22:21,990 --> 00:22:20,159
so but i mean it's just not who i know

617
00:22:23,190 --> 00:22:22,000
but it's also you know

618
00:22:26,230 --> 00:22:23,200
um

619
00:22:27,350 --> 00:22:26,240
these are generalizations that i think

620
00:22:28,630 --> 00:22:27,360
require

621
00:22:29,990 --> 00:22:28,640
a lot of

622
00:22:31,669 --> 00:22:30,000
we must we have to be really careful

623
00:22:33,270 --> 00:22:31,679
when we're talking about that but yeah i

624
00:22:35,669 --> 00:22:33,280
don't see that

625
00:22:37,510 --> 00:22:35,679
what's this association between religion

626
00:22:39,350 --> 00:22:37,520
and belief in ufos so for example you

627
00:22:40,950 --> 00:22:39,360
just said an atheist may believe in ufos

628
00:22:42,630 --> 00:22:40,960
and there's a religious like quality

629
00:22:44,630 --> 00:22:42,640
because they believe in a transcendent

630
00:22:47,270 --> 00:22:44,640
or they believe in transcendence okay so

631
00:22:48,870 --> 00:22:47,280
i just see that as it's broadly similar

632
00:22:50,710 --> 00:22:48,880
but i don't see it as being wholly

633
00:22:52,310 --> 00:22:50,720
similar so there must be more analogies

634
00:22:54,230 --> 00:22:52,320
than simply that so why don't you

635
00:22:56,870 --> 00:22:54,240
outline that for the audience and myself

636
00:22:58,390 --> 00:22:56,880
yeah of course okay so when you look at

637
00:23:00,230 --> 00:22:58,400
um

638
00:23:02,230 --> 00:23:00,240
when you look at

639
00:23:05,590 --> 00:23:02,240
religion and you look at

640
00:23:07,510 --> 00:23:05,600
belief in ufos okay so what you see

641
00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:07,520
first of all let's get rid of this idea

642
00:23:12,549 --> 00:23:09,600
that religion has to be exactly like

643
00:23:14,470 --> 00:23:12,559
christianity okay and instead let's look

644
00:23:17,350 --> 00:23:14,480
at religion as a set of beliefs and

645
00:23:19,270 --> 00:23:17,360
practices directed toward that which

646
00:23:21,750 --> 00:23:19,280
looks to be of transforming and

647
00:23:24,230 --> 00:23:21,760
transformative power okay because that's

648
00:23:25,830 --> 00:23:24,240
you know that includes then buddhism and

649
00:23:28,390 --> 00:23:25,840
you know some hinduism and things like

650
00:23:31,430 --> 00:23:28,400
that so other religions other than

651
00:23:33,110 --> 00:23:31,440
jewish christian islam okay so then you

652
00:23:34,710 --> 00:23:33,120
look at people who actually report

653
00:23:38,549 --> 00:23:34,720
seeing or being

654
00:23:41,669 --> 00:23:38,559
um in touch with inhabitants of ufos and

655
00:23:43,510 --> 00:23:41,679
a significant um percentage of them have

656
00:23:45,990 --> 00:23:43,520
a transformative experience after

657
00:23:48,149 --> 00:23:46,000
they've seen one okay they're like wow

658
00:23:50,310 --> 00:23:48,159
that really changed everything for me i

659
00:23:51,909 --> 00:23:50,320
just now know i mean i've talked to so

660
00:23:53,909 --> 00:23:51,919
many now thousands and thousands of

661
00:23:56,310 --> 00:23:53,919
people who have had experiences of

662
00:23:58,230 --> 00:23:56,320
either seeing a ufo or believing somehow

663
00:23:59,990 --> 00:23:58,240
that they're in contact with ufos now

664
00:24:02,310 --> 00:24:00,000
i'm not saying this is

665
00:24:04,789 --> 00:24:02,320
true or false because in my field we

666
00:24:07,270 --> 00:24:04,799
don't actually weigh in a very few of us

667
00:24:09,029 --> 00:24:07,280
weigh in on well you know trying to say

668
00:24:10,950 --> 00:24:09,039
this is a this exists or this doesn't

669
00:24:12,789 --> 00:24:10,960
exist you can't prove it right

670
00:24:14,230 --> 00:24:12,799
right now we just can't prove that

671
00:24:15,669 --> 00:24:14,240
so um

672
00:24:16,870 --> 00:24:15,679
you know it's the same with religion you

673
00:24:19,669 --> 00:24:16,880
can't prove

674
00:24:21,029 --> 00:24:19,679
god it exists or doesn't exist and so we

675
00:24:23,350 --> 00:24:21,039
just don't do that we just look at

676
00:24:24,789 --> 00:24:23,360
social effects but we also identify

677
00:24:26,789 --> 00:24:24,799
patterns so

678
00:24:28,710 --> 00:24:26,799
when people so this is what i saw when i

679
00:24:31,350 --> 00:24:28,720
started my work in

680
00:24:32,549 --> 00:24:31,360
looking at people who've seen ufos or

681
00:24:34,070 --> 00:24:32,559
believe that they're in touch with the

682
00:24:36,549 --> 00:24:34,080
inhabitants of ufos like

683
00:24:39,029 --> 00:24:36,559
extraterrestrials it i mean we already

684
00:24:41,590 --> 00:24:39,039
have religions based on ufos okay so we

685
00:24:44,870 --> 00:24:41,600
have nation of islam based on ufo

686
00:24:47,269 --> 00:24:44,880
sighting uh realism based on a ufo

687
00:24:50,470 --> 00:24:47,279
sighting okay so a lot of times people

688
00:24:52,630 --> 00:24:50,480
will have transcendent experiences

689
00:24:55,190 --> 00:24:52,640
either when they see a ufo or after

690
00:24:57,190 --> 00:24:55,200
they've seen the ufo so the transcendent

691
00:24:59,110 --> 00:24:57,200
experience that changes their lives

692
00:25:00,710 --> 00:24:59,120
that's like a religious conversion

693
00:25:02,070 --> 00:25:00,720
because that's you know if you look at

694
00:25:04,070 --> 00:25:02,080
the history of people who have been

695
00:25:05,510 --> 00:25:04,080
converted to religions you'll see that

696
00:25:07,909 --> 00:25:05,520
that's the type of experience that

697
00:25:09,269 --> 00:25:07,919
they're having and then a lot of times

698
00:25:11,029 --> 00:25:09,279
these people have

699
00:25:12,630 --> 00:25:11,039
intense

700
00:25:15,830 --> 00:25:12,640
uh long-term

701
00:25:18,149 --> 00:25:15,840
behavior changes okay where their value

702
00:25:21,350 --> 00:25:18,159
system changes like maybe they were

703
00:25:23,669 --> 00:25:21,360
really about making money you know um

704
00:25:26,789 --> 00:25:23,679
and you know and all of a sudden boom

705
00:25:27,750 --> 00:25:26,799
they have this experience of a ufo and

706
00:25:28,950 --> 00:25:27,760
um

707
00:25:31,669 --> 00:25:28,960
that you know these people are called

708
00:25:32,950 --> 00:25:31,679
experiencers by the way people who are

709
00:25:35,029 --> 00:25:32,960
um

710
00:25:36,630 --> 00:25:35,039
people who've seen or

711
00:25:38,230 --> 00:25:36,640
believe they're in conversation with

712
00:25:40,149 --> 00:25:38,240
inhabitants of ufos they're called

713
00:25:41,350 --> 00:25:40,159
experiencers and they've been around for

714
00:25:43,909 --> 00:25:41,360
a long time

715
00:25:45,590 --> 00:25:43,919
um but that you know right now that

716
00:25:48,149 --> 00:25:45,600
because of media

717
00:25:50,149 --> 00:25:48,159
and entertainment media

718
00:25:51,590 --> 00:25:50,159
uh people are more inclined to look at

719
00:25:53,750 --> 00:25:51,600
these events like when they see

720
00:25:55,350 --> 00:25:53,760
something like an aerial phenomena you

721
00:25:57,350 --> 00:25:55,360
know they're they're more inclined now

722
00:25:59,830 --> 00:25:57,360
to say if they can't identify it as a

723
00:26:01,669 --> 00:25:59,840
drone or an airplane or something like

724
00:26:03,510 --> 00:26:01,679
that they'll say oh it must be a ufo you

725
00:26:05,750 --> 00:26:03,520
know which is an unidentified flying

726
00:26:07,029 --> 00:26:05,760
object absolutely but then that there's

727
00:26:09,750 --> 00:26:07,039
a whole

728
00:26:10,630 --> 00:26:09,760
group of assumptions that they bring to

729
00:26:16,630 --> 00:26:10,640
that

730
00:26:19,430 --> 00:26:16,640
changed

731
00:26:22,149 --> 00:26:19,440
and that's why the ufo is now like a

732
00:26:23,909 --> 00:26:22,159
rising what i would call not a religion

733
00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:23,919
although we specifically have ufo

734
00:26:27,350 --> 00:26:25,760
religions i would call it the rise over

735
00:26:32,070 --> 00:26:27,360
religiosity

736
00:26:34,789 --> 00:26:32,080
yeah so religion looks very distinct and

737
00:26:37,190 --> 00:26:34,799
it kind of mimics or looks very similar

738
00:26:39,830 --> 00:26:37,200
to say a traditional religion like

739
00:26:42,630 --> 00:26:39,840
christianity in that you have a person

740
00:26:43,669 --> 00:26:42,640
who has seen a ufo

741
00:26:45,590 --> 00:26:43,679
and then

742
00:26:47,350 --> 00:26:45,600
um brings that information to other

743
00:26:49,190 --> 00:26:47,360
people and those people become converted

744
00:26:50,950 --> 00:26:49,200
to that religion let's say a nation of

745
00:26:52,789 --> 00:26:50,960
islam or something like that and then

746
00:26:54,630 --> 00:26:52,799
that's a very discreet

747
00:26:56,310 --> 00:26:54,640
uh set of beliefs and practices all

748
00:26:58,310 --> 00:26:56,320
right you're either a nation of islam

749
00:27:00,630 --> 00:26:58,320
person or you're not okay

750
00:27:04,630 --> 00:27:00,640
um but a religiosity

751
00:27:06,789 --> 00:27:04,640
is more like what we see with this uh

752
00:27:09,269 --> 00:27:06,799
spiritual but not religious community

753
00:27:11,590 --> 00:27:09,279
it's a set of beliefs and practices that

754
00:27:13,590 --> 00:27:11,600
people have that they don't have to

755
00:27:15,430 --> 00:27:13,600
ascribe to they don't say

756
00:27:16,310 --> 00:27:15,440
i absolutely believe

757
00:27:17,990 --> 00:27:16,320
in

758
00:27:20,789 --> 00:27:18,000
this person's

759
00:27:22,470 --> 00:27:20,799
idea of what the ufo message is it can

760
00:27:24,230 --> 00:27:22,480
be it can um

761
00:27:26,390 --> 00:27:24,240
it's basically

762
00:27:29,590 --> 00:27:26,400
it's not discrete

763
00:27:32,310 --> 00:27:29,600
it's a uh this dissemination of

764
00:27:35,590 --> 00:27:32,320
the beliefs and practices

765
00:27:38,070 --> 00:27:35,600
is decentralized there's no centralized

766
00:27:40,310 --> 00:27:38,080
belief structure or institution

767
00:27:43,350 --> 00:27:40,320
and um people get their information

768
00:27:44,549 --> 00:27:43,360
through each other on social media or

769
00:27:46,789 --> 00:27:44,559
through

770
00:27:49,269 --> 00:27:46,799
media like star wars or something like

771
00:27:51,750 --> 00:27:49,279
that right or through um documentaries

772
00:27:52,710 --> 00:27:51,760
that are supposed to actually be

773
00:27:55,750 --> 00:27:52,720
um

774
00:27:57,430 --> 00:27:55,760
non-fiction right even new york times

775
00:27:58,549 --> 00:27:57,440
you know where you see the tic tacs and

776
00:28:00,950 --> 00:27:58,559
things like that

777
00:28:02,630 --> 00:28:00,960
so and that's what i call a religiosity

778
00:28:04,230 --> 00:28:02,640
so a lot of people are having their

779
00:28:05,750 --> 00:28:04,240
lives completely

780
00:28:07,510 --> 00:28:05,760
or their let's put it this way that way

781
00:28:09,590 --> 00:28:07,520
they're having their basic truths and

782
00:28:12,870 --> 00:28:09,600
assumptions about reality shifted

783
00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:12,880
because of belief in extraterrestrials

784
00:28:17,750 --> 00:28:15,760
and that's that's what i see

785
00:28:19,269 --> 00:28:17,760
and you also mentioned the phrase that

786
00:28:21,430 --> 00:28:19,279
there's a transformative experience

787
00:28:22,789 --> 00:28:21,440
where they radically alter their beliefs

788
00:28:24,549 --> 00:28:22,799
or their

789
00:28:26,070 --> 00:28:24,559
outlook on life afterward i believe you

790
00:28:27,750 --> 00:28:26,080
said that was an element it's not a

791
00:28:28,710 --> 00:28:27,760
suggestion criteria but it's a necessary

792
00:28:32,950 --> 00:28:28,720
one

793
00:28:35,750 --> 00:28:32,960
it's it's a necessary well okay there

794
00:28:38,710 --> 00:28:35,760
are different you know um there are

795
00:28:40,870 --> 00:28:38,720
different varieties of belief in ets and

796
00:28:42,710 --> 00:28:40,880
ufos so some people believe that they

797
00:28:45,350 --> 00:28:42,720
were here in the past and maybe seated

798
00:28:47,430 --> 00:28:45,360
civilization actually uh dawkins has a

799
00:28:49,269 --> 00:28:47,440
video out there if you youtube it you

800
00:28:50,950 --> 00:28:49,279
know doc and zt where he basically

801
00:28:53,510 --> 00:28:50,960
suggests something like that

802
00:28:55,190 --> 00:28:53,520
um or that someday in the future maybe

803
00:28:57,190 --> 00:28:55,200
you know we'll be in contact with them

804
00:28:58,950 --> 00:28:57,200
or something like that or that they're

805
00:29:00,389 --> 00:28:58,960
out there but we'll just never be in

806
00:29:02,470 --> 00:29:00,399
contact with them because the universe

807
00:29:04,230 --> 00:29:02,480
is just you know huge

808
00:29:06,549 --> 00:29:04,240
um

809
00:29:08,310 --> 00:29:06,559
or they're in contact with us now okay

810
00:29:09,269 --> 00:29:08,320
so these are different ways that people

811
00:29:09,990 --> 00:29:09,279
believe

812
00:29:12,149 --> 00:29:10,000
in

813
00:29:14,149 --> 00:29:12,159
ufos and ets are those people who

814
00:29:16,630 --> 00:29:14,159
believe in the transformative experience

815
00:29:18,310 --> 00:29:16,640
of psychedelics somehow religious even

816
00:29:20,470 --> 00:29:18,320
if they're let's say one of those types

817
00:29:22,070 --> 00:29:20,480
who would be on the more atheistic end

818
00:29:23,909 --> 00:29:22,080
because the psychedelics have this

819
00:29:25,110 --> 00:29:23,919
quality of you ingest it sometimes you

820
00:29:27,029 --> 00:29:25,120
encounter some other being but you don't

821
00:29:29,430 --> 00:29:27,039
have to necessarily ascribe that to an

822
00:29:31,110 --> 00:29:29,440
objective reality maybe that's the

823
00:29:33,269 --> 00:29:31,120
union unconscious or just the

824
00:29:35,269 --> 00:29:33,279
unconscious without a union flare

825
00:29:37,909 --> 00:29:35,279
showing up and it's certainly

826
00:29:39,029 --> 00:29:37,919
transformative there's data about that

827
00:29:40,870 --> 00:29:39,039
does one

828
00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:40,880
who believes in the efficacy of

829
00:29:44,789 --> 00:29:43,200
psychedelics have some religiosity to

830
00:29:46,310 --> 00:29:44,799
them just because like i mentioned

831
00:29:47,830 --> 00:29:46,320
there's that criteria of transformative

832
00:29:50,389 --> 00:29:47,840
experience that radically

833
00:29:51,590 --> 00:29:50,399
yeah so um in the history of uh

834
00:29:54,789 --> 00:29:51,600
religious studies we could say

835
00:29:58,310 --> 00:29:54,799
absolutely um could we say that now

836
00:30:00,549 --> 00:29:58,320
uh of like european people european

837
00:30:03,430 --> 00:30:00,559
white people i guess you know americans

838
00:30:05,830 --> 00:30:03,440
canadians if you go down to brazil or

839
00:30:07,029 --> 00:30:05,840
central america and do ayahuasca and

840
00:30:09,590 --> 00:30:07,039
then see

841
00:30:12,149 --> 00:30:09,600
beings and things like that and then

842
00:30:13,750 --> 00:30:12,159
come back transformed but maybe don't

843
00:30:15,510 --> 00:30:13,760
believe in the objective reality of

844
00:30:17,990 --> 00:30:15,520
those beings okay so i would say that's

845
00:30:20,630 --> 00:30:18,000
not religious that's you know

846
00:30:22,630 --> 00:30:20,640
that's transformative no doubt um but

847
00:30:24,870 --> 00:30:22,640
within indigenous cultures

848
00:30:26,630 --> 00:30:24,880
especially like with native american the

849
00:30:29,909 --> 00:30:26,640
native american church and they use

850
00:30:31,590 --> 00:30:29,919
peyote in order to get in touch with

851
00:30:33,510 --> 00:30:31,600
what they believe to be presences that

852
00:30:35,830 --> 00:30:33,520
are sacred and then that absolutely

853
00:30:37,909 --> 00:30:35,840
transforms them and informs them as well

854
00:30:40,149 --> 00:30:37,919
and that's a religion okay and you can

855
00:30:42,549 --> 00:30:40,159
also see this within um

856
00:30:45,750 --> 00:30:42,559
even different forms of catholicism in

857
00:30:47,590 --> 00:30:45,760
oaxaca mexico so if you look at somebody

858
00:30:48,470 --> 00:30:47,600
like maria sabina who you probably don't

859
00:30:51,269 --> 00:30:48,480
know

860
00:30:52,950 --> 00:30:51,279
because she's fascinating so she's one

861
00:30:55,269 --> 00:30:52,960
of the most famous she is the most

862
00:30:57,990 --> 00:30:55,279
famous healer in mexico and i believe

863
00:30:59,830 --> 00:30:58,000
she died in the 1980s but um

864
00:31:02,470 --> 00:30:59,840
her whole life she was uh she used

865
00:31:04,310 --> 00:31:02,480
psilocybin to heal people and people

866
00:31:07,190 --> 00:31:04,320
came from all over mexico to be healed

867
00:31:09,029 --> 00:31:07,200
by her and she called the the beings

868
00:31:11,430 --> 00:31:09,039
that she believed she was in contact

869
00:31:12,789 --> 00:31:11,440
through eating psilocybin or drinking

870
00:31:15,510 --> 00:31:12,799
psilocybin tea

871
00:31:17,190 --> 00:31:15,520
um she called these beings little saints

872
00:31:19,590 --> 00:31:17,200
and that's absolutely a religion right

873
00:31:21,510 --> 00:31:19,600
there and in fact believe it or not it's

874
00:31:24,310 --> 00:31:21,520
a it's a denomination it's a form of

875
00:31:26,789 --> 00:31:24,320
catholicism okay and so you can even see

876
00:31:28,789 --> 00:31:26,799
cathedrals down in oaxaca that actually

877
00:31:30,549 --> 00:31:28,799
have mushrooms put into them because

878
00:31:32,470 --> 00:31:30,559
they were built by the indigenous people

879
00:31:33,990 --> 00:31:32,480
and this was part of their religion so

880
00:31:35,909 --> 00:31:34,000
when the spanish came and said you know

881
00:31:37,909 --> 00:31:35,919
build this cathedral for us they had no

882
00:31:41,029 --> 00:31:37,919
clue that they were actually in laying

883
00:31:42,630 --> 00:31:41,039
all these like you know mushrooms in the

884
00:31:45,350 --> 00:31:42,640
architecture and you can actually go

885
00:31:47,750 --> 00:31:45,360
down still and see that so yeah so this

886
00:31:49,590 --> 00:31:47,760
arises i mean it could be a religion

887
00:31:51,430 --> 00:31:49,600
curve do you see what i'm saying it just

888
00:31:52,630 --> 00:31:51,440
depends on whether or not you believe

889
00:31:54,549 --> 00:31:52,640
that it's a

890
00:31:56,630 --> 00:31:54,559
objective reality that's what a religion

891
00:31:59,029 --> 00:31:56,640
has it has this idea that there's

892
00:32:01,110 --> 00:31:59,039
something it's not subjective there's no

893
00:32:03,590 --> 00:32:01,120
subjective transformation there's both

894
00:32:05,909 --> 00:32:03,600
an objective reality that transforms you

895
00:32:09,029 --> 00:32:05,919
subjectively and then you become

896
00:32:11,830 --> 00:32:09,039
transformed but this thing is objective

897
00:32:15,269 --> 00:32:11,840
now i know people who are people here in

898
00:32:16,710 --> 00:32:15,279
north america who do ayahuasca together

899
00:32:18,389 --> 00:32:16,720
have the same visions even though they

900
00:32:20,230 --> 00:32:18,399
don't talk to each other and that

901
00:32:22,470 --> 00:32:20,240
reinforces their belief that there's an

902
00:32:25,830 --> 00:32:22,480
objective reality to this ayahuasca and

903
00:32:27,669 --> 00:32:25,840
they form churches around this okay so

904
00:32:29,110 --> 00:32:27,679
yeah so there's a lot of religion going

905
00:32:31,269 --> 00:32:29,120
on in there whether or not you can

906
00:32:33,990 --> 00:32:31,279
discreetly say this is a discreet

907
00:32:35,590 --> 00:32:34,000
religion and this is why it's just much

908
00:32:37,909 --> 00:32:35,600
more vague than that i know you're

909
00:32:40,789 --> 00:32:37,919
scientist so this is kind of like you

910
00:32:42,710 --> 00:32:40,799
know it it's just not as cut and dry as

911
00:32:45,029 --> 00:32:42,720
we like to say you know oh this is a

912
00:32:47,430 --> 00:32:45,039
religion and this is not a religion and

913
00:32:49,590 --> 00:32:47,440
there are you know it's it's um i think

914
00:32:51,430 --> 00:32:49,600
it has to do with the objective reality

915
00:32:53,830 --> 00:32:51,440
of the you know whether or not these

916
00:32:55,509 --> 00:32:53,840
people believe it's objectively true

917
00:32:57,029 --> 00:32:55,519
and again it could be or it could not be

918
00:32:58,710 --> 00:32:57,039
i don't know we don't actually weigh in

919
00:33:00,230 --> 00:32:58,720
on that but i think it's fascinating

920
00:33:02,870 --> 00:33:00,240
that's part of the reason i find ufos

921
00:33:06,630 --> 00:33:02,880
fascinating is because at this moment in

922
00:33:07,509 --> 00:33:06,640
time what do we have we do have like

923
00:33:09,750 --> 00:33:07,519
people

924
00:33:11,509 --> 00:33:09,760
who are coming out scientists like dr

925
00:33:13,430 --> 00:33:11,519
gary nolan who by the way was in

926
00:33:16,230 --> 00:33:13,440
american cosmic he's james in american

927
00:33:19,190 --> 00:33:16,240
cosmic um my book and i traveled around

928
00:33:21,669 --> 00:33:19,200
with him and he's a sports car

929
00:33:25,029 --> 00:33:21,679
yeah he's got

930
00:33:27,110 --> 00:33:25,039
i think he has a new one now um

931
00:33:29,430 --> 00:33:27,120
but he had one back then too

932
00:33:31,269 --> 00:33:29,440
and um

933
00:33:32,789 --> 00:33:31,279
so well that kind of like threw me off

934
00:33:34,870 --> 00:33:32,799
of what i was going to say sorry i'm so

935
00:33:36,149 --> 00:33:34,880
sorry

936
00:33:37,990 --> 00:33:36,159
you're saying so there's credible

937
00:33:39,669 --> 00:33:38,000
scientists yeah yeah okay so you have

938
00:33:42,310 --> 00:33:39,679
people yeah and you also have you know

939
00:33:44,230 --> 00:33:42,320
these big news outlets that people trust

940
00:33:45,909 --> 00:33:44,240
for good or bad right like new york

941
00:33:47,830 --> 00:33:45,919
times and things like that and they're

942
00:33:49,350 --> 00:33:47,840
basically saying yeah this is real you

943
00:33:51,430 --> 00:33:49,360
know these things exist and they're real

944
00:33:53,029 --> 00:33:51,440
so to me as a person who studies

945
00:33:55,110 --> 00:33:53,039
religion this is the first time in my

946
00:33:57,909 --> 00:33:55,120
life that i've actually seen something

947
00:34:00,070 --> 00:33:57,919
that's religious like this religiosity

948
00:34:02,870 --> 00:34:00,080
that's hooking onto

949
00:34:04,549 --> 00:34:02,880
an objective reality and this is

950
00:34:06,789 --> 00:34:04,559
transforming people

951
00:34:08,869 --> 00:34:06,799
right as we speak and so i think that

952
00:34:11,030 --> 00:34:08,879
you know carl jung back in the day you

953
00:34:13,430 --> 00:34:11,040
know a long time ago in the 1940s he

954
00:34:15,990 --> 00:34:13,440
basically said how lucky are we

955
00:34:17,669 --> 00:34:16,000
that we get to now see we get to now be

956
00:34:18,550 --> 00:34:17,679
at the very beginning of this new belief

957
00:34:20,710 --> 00:34:18,560
system

958
00:34:23,190 --> 00:34:20,720
little did he know how intense it was

959
00:34:26,310 --> 00:34:23,200
gonna get right and so that's uh i think

960
00:34:29,829 --> 00:34:26,320
that we're at a really fascinating point

961
00:34:31,589 --> 00:34:29,839
and as lucky for me i feel like i caught

962
00:34:34,389 --> 00:34:31,599
the wave of it right before it happened

963
00:34:36,869 --> 00:34:34,399
i caught it with american cosmic in and

964
00:34:39,589 --> 00:34:36,879
believe me i took heat for it so you

965
00:34:42,069 --> 00:34:39,599
know i'm here hanging out with gary

966
00:34:44,710 --> 00:34:42,079
nolan from stanford you know we're going

967
00:34:46,869 --> 00:34:44,720
into the new mexico desert with somebody

968
00:34:49,909 --> 00:34:46,879
somebody who is affiliated with our

969
00:34:52,790 --> 00:34:49,919
space program and basically using these

970
00:34:56,790 --> 00:34:52,800
medical med uh metal detectors looking

971
00:34:59,030 --> 00:34:56,800
for this debris from crash saucers right

972
00:35:01,109 --> 00:34:59,040
uh at a site that's not roswell but is

973
00:35:02,470 --> 00:35:01,119
one of the sites that's you know where a

974
00:35:05,030 --> 00:35:02,480
crash is supposed to have landed in the

975
00:35:06,870 --> 00:35:05,040
1940s now to me this was all a myth

976
00:35:09,589 --> 00:35:06,880
right and i was going out there to

977
00:35:12,310 --> 00:35:09,599
understand how somebody as amazing as

978
00:35:14,550 --> 00:35:12,320
gary and as amazing as tyler i call him

979
00:35:16,470 --> 00:35:14,560
in my book he hasn't come out as gary's

980
00:35:18,710 --> 00:35:16,480
come out as himself so i can talk about

981
00:35:20,550 --> 00:35:18,720
him but the other person hasn't i'm like

982
00:35:21,589 --> 00:35:20,560
how do these people who are obviously

983
00:35:23,430 --> 00:35:21,599
rational

984
00:35:26,470 --> 00:35:23,440
how are they believing this that was my

985
00:35:27,349 --> 00:35:26,480
question because this is truly strange

986
00:35:29,589 --> 00:35:27,359
and

987
00:35:31,990 --> 00:35:29,599
i was just i felt like i was a walking

988
00:35:33,670 --> 00:35:32,000
question mark like constantly just what

989
00:35:35,109 --> 00:35:33,680
you know what is are you kidding you

990
00:35:37,270 --> 00:35:35,119
really believe this yes they really

991
00:35:40,790 --> 00:35:37,280
believe this in fact they they put these

992
00:35:42,470 --> 00:35:40,800
you know things into different types of

993
00:35:44,710 --> 00:35:42,480
microscopes and you know they looked at

994
00:35:46,870 --> 00:35:44,720
these in different ways and they're like

995
00:35:49,910 --> 00:35:46,880
yeah this is a these these parts are

996
00:35:51,750 --> 00:35:49,920
anomalous and we believe that they're

997
00:35:54,550 --> 00:35:51,760
they're not earthly and things like that

998
00:35:55,990 --> 00:35:54,560
i mean it was pretty crazy so to me

999
00:35:58,630 --> 00:35:56,000
this is now

1000
00:36:01,270 --> 00:35:58,640
uh becoming something that's being

1001
00:36:03,589 --> 00:36:01,280
almost like mass-marketed like through

1002
00:36:05,349 --> 00:36:03,599
media because you know now we don't have

1003
00:36:07,990 --> 00:36:05,359
the same type of media that we had in

1004
00:36:10,390 --> 00:36:08,000
the 1950s and 60s where things were slow

1005
00:36:12,630 --> 00:36:10,400
things are almost instantaneous now so

1006
00:36:15,030 --> 00:36:12,640
when dr gary nolan would say publishes a

1007
00:36:17,349 --> 00:36:15,040
paper boom everybody reads it right and

1008
00:36:19,510 --> 00:36:17,359
now everybody has this knowledge and so

1009
00:36:22,390 --> 00:36:19,520
we're seeing kind of like um

1010
00:36:24,550 --> 00:36:22,400
a bunch of changes happening at once and

1011
00:36:27,270 --> 00:36:24,560
i find it fascinating for religion for

1012
00:36:29,430 --> 00:36:27,280
this kind of what i call a religiosity

1013
00:36:31,910 --> 00:36:29,440
it's definitely not a religion in the

1014
00:36:35,030 --> 00:36:31,920
old time way i believe it's a it's the

1015
00:36:35,990 --> 00:36:35,040
formation of a new type of transcendent

1016
00:36:37,750 --> 00:36:36,000
religion

1017
00:36:38,950 --> 00:36:37,760
a couple of questions so one is you

1018
00:36:40,310 --> 00:36:38,960
mentioned that you took some flack i

1019
00:36:41,670 --> 00:36:40,320
believe you said you took some heat oh

1020
00:36:43,030 --> 00:36:41,680
yeah because of the release of the book

1021
00:36:44,550 --> 00:36:43,040
where did you take the flak from who

1022
00:36:45,829 --> 00:36:44,560
gave you this heat

1023
00:36:47,589 --> 00:36:45,839
sure okay

1024
00:36:49,510 --> 00:36:47,599
so um you have to understand that i am

1025
00:36:52,870 --> 00:36:49,520
not the only professor who's delved into

1026
00:36:54,950 --> 00:36:52,880
this and gotten heat for it so

1027
00:36:56,550 --> 00:36:54,960
and i don't now because obviously

1028
00:36:58,310 --> 00:36:56,560
there's a lot out there now the

1029
00:37:00,150 --> 00:36:58,320
government has said yeah we have some

1030
00:37:02,390 --> 00:37:00,160
cases that we just don't can't explain

1031
00:37:04,470 --> 00:37:02,400
and things like that so thankfully my

1032
00:37:06,950 --> 00:37:04,480
book got retro

1033
00:37:09,190 --> 00:37:06,960
credibility right so it came out before

1034
00:37:10,630 --> 00:37:09,200
all of this happened and then it

1035
00:37:12,550 --> 00:37:10,640
happened you know just within a couple

1036
00:37:13,990 --> 00:37:12,560
years all right so who did i get heat

1037
00:37:17,109 --> 00:37:14,000
from so um

1038
00:37:19,030 --> 00:37:17,119
i was a chair of my department and i was

1039
00:37:21,670 --> 00:37:19,040
a full professor when i was doing this

1040
00:37:23,589 --> 00:37:21,680
research and i'd won the research awards

1041
00:37:25,750 --> 00:37:23,599
at my university and i was a well-known

1042
00:37:26,950 --> 00:37:25,760
professor in catholic history and i

1043
00:37:28,710 --> 00:37:26,960
published with

1044
00:37:31,270 --> 00:37:28,720
oxford right so

1045
00:37:32,710 --> 00:37:31,280
i was already pretty upset that i i

1046
00:37:34,470 --> 00:37:32,720
didn't care if people were going to give

1047
00:37:37,109 --> 00:37:34,480
me flack because i knew that my

1048
00:37:39,510 --> 00:37:37,119
methodology was sound so i was okay with

1049
00:37:40,390 --> 00:37:39,520
it but i'd go to

1050
00:37:43,349 --> 00:37:40,400
a

1051
00:37:47,430 --> 00:37:45,430
i would go to conferences

1052
00:37:48,230 --> 00:37:47,440
and people would

1053
00:37:51,109 --> 00:37:48,240
would

1054
00:37:53,270 --> 00:37:51,119
call the work the you know the research

1055
00:37:54,550 --> 00:37:53,280
they'd say that's interesting and if

1056
00:37:56,630 --> 00:37:54,560
you're in philosophy you know what that

1057
00:37:58,550 --> 00:37:56,640
means that means wow

1058
00:37:59,750 --> 00:37:58,560
totally weird like not interesting at

1059
00:38:01,589 --> 00:37:59,760
all kind of thing

1060
00:38:03,670 --> 00:38:01,599
and so um

1061
00:38:06,710 --> 00:38:03,680
and i get this a lot but i was still i

1062
00:38:08,230 --> 00:38:06,720
still knew that i that it was it's not

1063
00:38:10,390 --> 00:38:08,240
that bad

1064
00:38:12,230 --> 00:38:10,400
no i know i mean i mean yeah there's no

1065
00:38:14,470 --> 00:38:12,240
like you know uh

1066
00:38:16,230 --> 00:38:14,480
funding that's taken away a lot of but i

1067
00:38:18,470 --> 00:38:16,240
would i didn't tell a lot of people what

1068
00:38:20,790 --> 00:38:18,480
i was doing and then the book comes out

1069
00:38:22,710 --> 00:38:20,800
and honestly i thought maybe 10 people

1070
00:38:25,030 --> 00:38:22,720
would read it like you know it's an

1071
00:38:26,870 --> 00:38:25,040
academic book and i thought it was

1072
00:38:29,270 --> 00:38:26,880
pretty obscure in terms of like talking

1073
00:38:30,790 --> 00:38:29,280
about how technology is shifting the

1074
00:38:33,510 --> 00:38:30,800
ways in which people think and i was

1075
00:38:36,230 --> 00:38:33,520
taking the ufo as an example of this but

1076
00:38:38,390 --> 00:38:36,240
um but it just kind of

1077
00:38:40,790 --> 00:38:38,400
went way beyond what i had thought so

1078
00:38:42,150 --> 00:38:40,800
that's how i took the heat um i had a

1079
00:38:43,670 --> 00:38:42,160
lot of

1080
00:38:44,790 --> 00:38:43,680
people

1081
00:38:47,430 --> 00:38:44,800
um

1082
00:38:49,270 --> 00:38:47,440
i guess tell me that i'd gone this is

1083
00:38:51,910 --> 00:38:49,280
such a terrible term

1084
00:38:55,270 --> 00:38:51,920
and i hate this term but this was said

1085
00:38:57,670 --> 00:38:55,280
um you've gone native right you know in

1086
00:38:58,710 --> 00:38:57,680
in anthropology this means that you now

1087
00:39:00,310 --> 00:38:58,720
believe

1088
00:39:01,670 --> 00:39:00,320
the people that you're studying you know

1089
00:39:03,589 --> 00:39:01,680
are are

1090
00:39:04,790 --> 00:39:03,599
what they're saying is true and this is

1091
00:39:06,069 --> 00:39:04,800
something you just are you're not

1092
00:39:08,470 --> 00:39:06,079
supposed to do

1093
00:39:11,670 --> 00:39:08,480
and you know it's a completely horrible

1094
00:39:14,790 --> 00:39:11,680
racist term and um that was said of me

1095
00:39:16,069 --> 00:39:14,800
things like that so um

1096
00:39:17,190 --> 00:39:16,079
those that's the kind of heat that i

1097
00:39:18,950 --> 00:39:17,200
took

1098
00:39:20,870 --> 00:39:18,960
so that's from the academic community or

1099
00:39:22,630 --> 00:39:20,880
a subset of the academic community what

1100
00:39:24,710 --> 00:39:22,640
about from the public

1101
00:39:26,230 --> 00:39:24,720
so for example i imagine that there i

1102
00:39:28,630 --> 00:39:26,240
know gary gets this but i know many

1103
00:39:29,829 --> 00:39:28,640
people get this plenty where there's

1104
00:39:32,150 --> 00:39:29,839
there are the people who consider

1105
00:39:33,270 --> 00:39:32,160
themselves to be the rational skeptics

1106
00:39:34,710 --> 00:39:33,280
where

1107
00:39:36,230 --> 00:39:34,720
are the rational skeptics of the sort

1108
00:39:38,230 --> 00:39:36,240
who only follow where the evidence leads

1109
00:39:40,310 --> 00:39:38,240
them and this is all woo because there's

1110
00:39:42,069 --> 00:39:40,320
such a paucity of evidence and you're

1111
00:39:43,910 --> 00:39:42,079
believing people based on testimony and

1112
00:39:46,390 --> 00:39:43,920
that's not what one does in

1113
00:39:48,550 --> 00:39:46,400
in science and it's not replicable etc

1114
00:39:50,069 --> 00:39:48,560
and and and partly that's true but then

1115
00:39:51,990 --> 00:39:50,079
the dismissal of it i don't agree with

1116
00:39:53,510 --> 00:39:52,000
the deriding and the

1117
00:39:54,710 --> 00:39:53,520
and the snide remarks to come along with

1118
00:39:56,390 --> 00:39:54,720
that so did you were you on the

1119
00:39:57,750 --> 00:39:56,400
receiving end of any

1120
00:39:59,270 --> 00:39:57,760
of those

1121
00:40:01,589 --> 00:39:59,280
oh definitely i think that a lot of

1122
00:40:02,870 --> 00:40:01,599
people will say that

1123
00:40:03,990 --> 00:40:02,880
it's

1124
00:40:06,069 --> 00:40:04,000
you know

1125
00:40:07,589 --> 00:40:06,079
i mean let's take the rational

1126
00:40:09,750 --> 00:40:07,599
you know the approach that this is not

1127
00:40:12,550 --> 00:40:09,760
rational in my opinion that's completely

1128
00:40:14,550 --> 00:40:12,560
rational like if you're seeing things

1129
00:40:17,190 --> 00:40:14,560
and you're getting results let's take

1130
00:40:18,630 --> 00:40:17,200
this the space program our united states

1131
00:40:21,109 --> 00:40:18,640
space program and the russian space

1132
00:40:23,430 --> 00:40:21,119
program as an example of this okay and

1133
00:40:25,990 --> 00:40:23,440
when i say an example of this what

1134
00:40:28,630 --> 00:40:26,000
an example of

1135
00:40:31,349 --> 00:40:28,640
um basically people not following the

1136
00:40:34,150 --> 00:40:31,359
evidence okay so the evidence is this

1137
00:40:36,950 --> 00:40:34,160
that the people who founded our space

1138
00:40:39,109 --> 00:40:36,960
programs did a lot of weird science

1139
00:40:41,270 --> 00:40:39,119
woo science i would call it woo science

1140
00:40:43,109 --> 00:40:41,280
and they still continue to do that tyler

1141
00:40:45,349 --> 00:40:43,119
is an example of somebody who's doing

1142
00:40:47,670 --> 00:40:45,359
weird science you can't replicate what

1143
00:40:49,030 --> 00:40:47,680
he did with jack parsons who founded our

1144
00:40:51,910 --> 00:40:49,040
space program

1145
00:40:54,069 --> 00:40:51,920
uh werner von braun founded you know he

1146
00:40:57,589 --> 00:40:54,079
was german but he came over to our space

1147
00:40:59,990 --> 00:40:57,599
program um and then um constantine

1148
00:41:02,710 --> 00:41:00,000
jakovsky he founded the russian space

1149
00:41:05,750 --> 00:41:02,720
program all these people created

1150
00:41:07,670 --> 00:41:05,760
the calculations that would get us off

1151
00:41:09,829 --> 00:41:07,680
of earth right that would get us up into

1152
00:41:11,430 --> 00:41:09,839
space okay well that's

1153
00:41:13,910 --> 00:41:11,440
big okay

1154
00:41:14,870 --> 00:41:13,920
and they did this through means that

1155
00:41:17,430 --> 00:41:14,880
looked

1156
00:41:19,430 --> 00:41:17,440
irrational they had techniques that they

1157
00:41:21,109 --> 00:41:19,440
used and as a person who studies

1158
00:41:23,349 --> 00:41:21,119
religion these are identifiable

1159
00:41:25,670 --> 00:41:23,359
techniques these are body techniques so

1160
00:41:26,630 --> 00:41:25,680
they're using a lot of what we would

1161
00:41:28,950 --> 00:41:26,640
call

1162
00:41:30,069 --> 00:41:28,960
you know like eschesis that's a greek

1163
00:41:31,430 --> 00:41:30,079
word for

1164
00:41:36,390 --> 00:41:31,440
um

1165
00:41:37,270 --> 00:41:36,400
disciplined with respect to

1166
00:41:41,109 --> 00:41:37,280
your

1167
00:41:43,030 --> 00:41:41,119
thoughts so they were going into some

1168
00:41:46,309 --> 00:41:43,040
kind of almost like an altered state of

1169
00:41:49,190 --> 00:41:46,319
consciousness at least jack parsons was

1170
00:41:52,230 --> 00:41:49,200
and then creating these you know kind of

1171
00:41:54,470 --> 00:41:52,240
downloading this information um well

1172
00:41:56,550 --> 00:41:54,480
what what does that say um i just

1173
00:41:59,430 --> 00:41:56,560
recently given a talk and i made this

1174
00:42:01,190 --> 00:41:59,440
case i said that's where the data leads

1175
00:42:03,910 --> 00:42:01,200
us i mean if we're rational we're going

1176
00:42:05,910 --> 00:42:03,920
to say yeah you can't replicate that but

1177
00:42:07,670 --> 00:42:05,920
that's where the the data says that

1178
00:42:10,309 --> 00:42:07,680
those things actually work like those

1179
00:42:11,270 --> 00:42:10,319
kinds of you know um i spoke to carrie

1180
00:42:13,430 --> 00:42:11,280
mullis

1181
00:42:14,870 --> 00:42:13,440
here i'm going to

1182
00:42:17,109 --> 00:42:14,880
i don't know if you can hear that can

1183
00:42:19,270 --> 00:42:17,119
you hear that no no no oh okay never

1184
00:42:21,349 --> 00:42:19,280
mind then um

1185
00:42:23,750 --> 00:42:21,359
all right carrie mullis he is a nobel

1186
00:42:26,630 --> 00:42:23,760
prize winning winning chemist right so

1187
00:42:28,550 --> 00:42:26,640
he is uh he discovered the polymerase

1188
00:42:29,430 --> 00:42:28,560
chain reaction all right

1189
00:42:31,829 --> 00:42:29,440
now

1190
00:42:34,150 --> 00:42:31,839
i suggest to your listeners that they go

1191
00:42:36,470 --> 00:42:34,160
check out his webpage carrie mullis

1192
00:42:38,390 --> 00:42:36,480
where he talks about he died two years

1193
00:42:41,109 --> 00:42:38,400
ago um but he basically talks about

1194
00:42:43,430 --> 00:42:41,119
creativity and his means of being

1195
00:42:46,069 --> 00:42:43,440
creative was exactly like tyler's means

1196
00:42:47,829 --> 00:42:46,079
of being creative and very similar to

1197
00:42:50,790 --> 00:42:47,839
the space program you know people in the

1198
00:42:52,950 --> 00:42:50,800
space program and he's a genius okay and

1199
00:42:55,430 --> 00:42:52,960
so what i'm saying is this i'm not a

1200
00:42:57,030 --> 00:42:55,440
scientist but i'm saying to scientists

1201
00:42:59,349 --> 00:42:57,040
the data looks

1202
00:43:00,790 --> 00:42:59,359
weird right it looks weird but i think

1203
00:43:01,990 --> 00:43:00,800
it and it looks like you know these

1204
00:43:04,470 --> 00:43:02,000
people are doing things that are not

1205
00:43:06,630 --> 00:43:04,480
rational but to a person in my field

1206
00:43:08,870 --> 00:43:06,640
these things are actually

1207
00:43:10,390 --> 00:43:08,880
patterns and why would you ignore those

1208
00:43:11,430 --> 00:43:10,400
patterns if they're giving these amazing

1209
00:43:12,870 --> 00:43:11,440
results

1210
00:43:13,990 --> 00:43:12,880
if you're actually you know if the

1211
00:43:15,589 --> 00:43:14,000
results

1212
00:43:16,790 --> 00:43:15,599
are something that you would you know

1213
00:43:20,309 --> 00:43:16,800
you want

1214
00:43:22,870 --> 00:43:20,319
why discount than the the body practices

1215
00:43:26,150 --> 00:43:22,880
that they're engaged in that's my point

1216
00:43:28,150 --> 00:43:26,160
and so i think that is actually rational

1217
00:43:29,589 --> 00:43:28,160
there's there's rationality to the woo

1218
00:43:31,510 --> 00:43:29,599
let's put it that way

1219
00:43:33,510 --> 00:43:31,520
so what if someone says okay the fact

1220
00:43:35,349 --> 00:43:33,520
that these practices exist and then

1221
00:43:37,750 --> 00:43:35,359
instigate some creative or that spur

1222
00:43:38,790 --> 00:43:37,760
some creative insight it doesn't mean

1223
00:43:40,309 --> 00:43:38,800
that

1224
00:43:42,790 --> 00:43:40,319
what they think is occurring is

1225
00:43:45,750 --> 00:43:42,800
necessarily occurring or is objective

1226
00:43:47,990 --> 00:43:45,760
and many creative people have practices

1227
00:43:50,550 --> 00:43:48,000
that are deviating and peculiar even

1228
00:43:52,069 --> 00:43:50,560
newton he engaged in alchemy and let's

1229
00:43:53,990 --> 00:43:52,079
imagine that alchemy served as the

1230
00:43:56,150 --> 00:43:54,000
inspiration for calculus it doesn't lend

1231
00:43:58,390 --> 00:43:56,160
credence to the objective validity of

1232
00:43:59,910 --> 00:43:58,400
alchemy it just means that just like wim

1233
00:44:01,829 --> 00:43:59,920
hof can say that hey you may have a

1234
00:44:03,589 --> 00:44:01,839
creative insight if you run for a while

1235
00:44:05,349 --> 00:44:03,599
then jump into a cold bath

1236
00:44:06,870 --> 00:44:05,359
maybe that's true and there's an

1237
00:44:10,550 --> 00:44:06,880
extremely tight relationship between our

1238
00:44:12,309 --> 00:44:10,560
body and our our minds and it doesn't

1239
00:44:13,670 --> 00:44:12,319
necessarily mean that

1240
00:44:15,589 --> 00:44:13,680
there

1241
00:44:17,190 --> 00:44:15,599
even if it's consistent consistently

1242
00:44:18,550 --> 00:44:17,200
when you jump in that bath consistently

1243
00:44:19,829 --> 00:44:18,560
when you perform alchemy consistently

1244
00:44:22,069 --> 00:44:19,839
when you meditate in this way and and

1245
00:44:23,589 --> 00:44:22,079
supposedly talk to beings and so on even

1246
00:44:24,950 --> 00:44:23,599
if that's the case it doesn't mean that

1247
00:44:26,550 --> 00:44:24,960
the mechanisms that you think are

1248
00:44:27,990 --> 00:44:26,560
working are the reasons it just means

1249
00:44:29,990 --> 00:44:28,000
the practice work

1250
00:44:31,510 --> 00:44:30,000
i totally agree with that yeah i'm on

1251
00:44:33,829 --> 00:44:31,520
board with that in fact i would suggest

1252
00:44:35,990 --> 00:44:33,839
that that's what we that's the type you

1253
00:44:37,750 --> 00:44:36,000
see to to me you're thinking like a

1254
00:44:39,750 --> 00:44:37,760
person in religious studies

1255
00:44:41,670 --> 00:44:39,760
you're saying there are patterns here

1256
00:44:44,390 --> 00:44:41,680
and the patterns have to do with some

1257
00:44:46,870 --> 00:44:44,400
body practices right excuses body

1258
00:44:48,630 --> 00:44:46,880
practices but this body but the body

1259
00:44:50,230 --> 00:44:48,640
practices are different for each of

1260
00:44:52,710 --> 00:44:50,240
those people and they're kind of strange

1261
00:44:54,630 --> 00:44:52,720
like if you took jack parsons he did a

1262
00:44:57,030 --> 00:44:54,640
lot of really weird things i would not

1263
00:44:58,950 --> 00:44:57,040
want to have hung out with him right so

1264
00:45:01,109 --> 00:44:58,960
you know he's part of some you know

1265
00:45:03,990 --> 00:45:01,119
aleister crowley and people like that i

1266
00:45:06,550 --> 00:45:04,000
mean frankly very very different than

1267
00:45:09,349 --> 00:45:06,560
constantine tchaikovsky who does very

1268
00:45:12,069 --> 00:45:09,359
similar ritualistic things but they have

1269
00:45:14,150 --> 00:45:12,079
they are in no way does he view it as a

1270
00:45:16,470 --> 00:45:14,160
new form of religion you know he thought

1271
00:45:18,230 --> 00:45:16,480
of his as christianity so do you see

1272
00:45:21,430 --> 00:45:18,240
what i'm saying and then when tyler's

1273
00:45:24,710 --> 00:45:21,440
doing it here in the you know 2000s he's

1274
00:45:26,470 --> 00:45:24,720
doing very similar things but he's not

1275
00:45:28,390 --> 00:45:26,480
he doesn't think of it as aleister

1276
00:45:31,270 --> 00:45:28,400
crowley he would he would be he would

1277
00:45:33,190 --> 00:45:31,280
probably be horrified to even think that

1278
00:45:33,990 --> 00:45:33,200
it had anything to do with jack parsons

1279
00:45:35,670 --> 00:45:34,000
right

1280
00:45:37,750 --> 00:45:35,680
so what i'm saying is i agree with you

1281
00:45:40,069 --> 00:45:37,760
entirely i think that what we need to do

1282
00:45:42,150 --> 00:45:40,079
is we need to identify that these people

1283
00:45:43,990 --> 00:45:42,160
do these things and what are these

1284
00:45:46,630 --> 00:45:44,000
things and are there patterns yes there

1285
00:45:49,030 --> 00:45:46,640
are patterns but what they specifically

1286
00:45:51,349 --> 00:45:49,040
believe about them is based on their own

1287
00:45:54,790 --> 00:45:51,359
interpretive framework so jack parsons

1288
00:45:57,030 --> 00:45:54,800
happened to be in la in the early 20th

1289
00:45:59,750 --> 00:45:57,040
century where there was a belief system

1290
00:46:02,470 --> 00:45:59,760
in place for him to kind of hook into um

1291
00:46:04,550 --> 00:46:02,480
if you look at do you know ramanujan the

1292
00:46:06,790 --> 00:46:04,560
mathematician okay he thought that the

1293
00:46:08,870 --> 00:46:06,800
goddess lakshmi was whispering those

1294
00:46:11,510 --> 00:46:08,880
calculations the math calculations

1295
00:46:13,349 --> 00:46:11,520
brilliant math genius into his ears so

1296
00:46:14,390 --> 00:46:13,359
that was his interpretive framework you

1297
00:46:17,030 --> 00:46:14,400
see what i'm saying

1298
00:46:19,510 --> 00:46:17,040
um also i when i was doing american

1299
00:46:22,230 --> 00:46:19,520
cosmic i was reading up on creativity

1300
00:46:24,630 --> 00:46:22,240
and um i forgot the name of the um the

1301
00:46:26,870 --> 00:46:24,640
person whose work i had read but she was

1302
00:46:29,030 --> 00:46:26,880
really she's really good um and it's

1303
00:46:31,349 --> 00:46:29,040
it's there's is cited there in american

1304
00:46:33,030 --> 00:46:31,359
cosmic but basically she said that if

1305
00:46:35,349 --> 00:46:33,040
you do if you look at the brains of

1306
00:46:37,270 --> 00:46:35,359
people who are being extremely creative

1307
00:46:39,510 --> 00:46:37,280
we're talking about creative genius uh

1308
00:46:42,069 --> 00:46:39,520
what you see is that something is shut

1309
00:46:43,430 --> 00:46:42,079
down i think she said in the executive

1310
00:46:45,750 --> 00:46:43,440
lope or something like that the

1311
00:46:47,109 --> 00:46:45,760
executive promotion is shut down and the

1312
00:46:49,109 --> 00:46:47,119
people that are being creative are

1313
00:46:51,270 --> 00:46:49,119
attributing their creativity to

1314
00:46:53,190 --> 00:46:51,280
something objective

1315
00:46:55,190 --> 00:46:53,200
yeah so they're attributing it to

1316
00:46:56,710 --> 00:46:55,200
something objective that doesn't mean

1317
00:46:58,069 --> 00:46:56,720
that there's something objective there

1318
00:46:58,950 --> 00:46:58,079
it just means that that's what they're

1319
00:47:00,950 --> 00:46:58,960
doing

1320
00:47:03,109 --> 00:47:00,960
right and so i that's the way i would

1321
00:47:05,030 --> 00:47:03,119
like to do this research and that's how

1322
00:47:06,710 --> 00:47:05,040
we can avoid you know a lot of people

1323
00:47:08,790 --> 00:47:06,720
are are just they have knee-jerk

1324
00:47:11,430 --> 00:47:08,800
reactions to it for some reason like

1325
00:47:13,270 --> 00:47:11,440
that's woo you know well it's where that

1326
00:47:15,510 --> 00:47:13,280
works and i want to know why it works

1327
00:47:16,950 --> 00:47:15,520
that's basically my position

1328
00:47:18,390 --> 00:47:16,960
now i'm super interested in what

1329
00:47:19,750 --> 00:47:18,400
constitutes a religion and what doesn't

1330
00:47:20,470 --> 00:47:19,760
which is why i have many questions about

1331
00:47:22,309 --> 00:47:20,480
this

1332
00:47:25,349 --> 00:47:22,319
sure the people who

1333
00:47:27,190 --> 00:47:25,359
label what you just outlined as woo

1334
00:47:29,670 --> 00:47:27,200
this stigmatization

1335
00:47:31,670 --> 00:47:29,680
is there something that is common among

1336
00:47:33,670 --> 00:47:31,680
those people that

1337
00:47:36,230 --> 00:47:33,680
makes the stigmatization itself a form

1338
00:47:37,750 --> 00:47:36,240
of religion so that is to say when the

1339
00:47:39,190 --> 00:47:37,760
people who are of the more atheistic

1340
00:47:40,950 --> 00:47:39,200
type not picking on them it's just the

1341
00:47:43,109 --> 00:47:40,960
easiest that come to mind when the

1342
00:47:45,030 --> 00:47:43,119
atheistic types make fun of religion and

1343
00:47:47,829 --> 00:47:45,040
they say that i'm not religious is there

1344
00:47:50,150 --> 00:47:47,839
something religious about that

1345
00:47:51,910 --> 00:47:50,160
oh i hear what you're saying um

1346
00:47:53,510 --> 00:47:51,920
no i don't necessarily think so i know

1347
00:47:55,190 --> 00:47:53,520
that a lot of people say that atheism is

1348
00:47:55,910 --> 00:47:55,200
like a religion because you know people

1349
00:47:58,870 --> 00:47:55,920
are

1350
00:48:01,430 --> 00:47:58,880
atheist and you know you're in our

1351
00:48:03,829 --> 00:48:01,440
community and it's kind of exclusionary

1352
00:48:06,630 --> 00:48:03,839
right and some religions are like that

1353
00:48:08,309 --> 00:48:06,640
not all but some are and

1354
00:48:09,990 --> 00:48:08,319
um they're dogmatic like they're

1355
00:48:11,670 --> 00:48:10,000
dogmatic atheists i think that's what

1356
00:48:13,270 --> 00:48:11,680
they're trying to say is there's a

1357
00:48:15,829 --> 00:48:13,280
dogmatism about

1358
00:48:18,390 --> 00:48:15,839
some atheists who like i said like to

1359
00:48:20,470 --> 00:48:18,400
put like to make a strong man argument

1360
00:48:22,230 --> 00:48:20,480
about religion and then like knock it

1361
00:48:24,549 --> 00:48:22,240
down and say see there's nothing there

1362
00:48:26,790 --> 00:48:24,559
right um

1363
00:48:28,630 --> 00:48:26,800
yeah i don't think so i think that um

1364
00:48:30,870 --> 00:48:28,640
there's a variety of atheist beliefs

1365
00:48:32,549 --> 00:48:30,880
anyway right so when i say i was atheist

1366
00:48:33,990 --> 00:48:32,559
with respect to ufos

1367
00:48:37,270 --> 00:48:34,000
i didn't believe in the objective

1368
00:48:39,270 --> 00:48:37,280
reality of it of ufos okay um and i

1369
00:48:41,030 --> 00:48:39,280
thought that people who did i thought

1370
00:48:43,190 --> 00:48:41,040
they were completely wrong

1371
00:48:45,430 --> 00:48:43,200
and i'm not that way anymore so you can

1372
00:48:46,950 --> 00:48:45,440
be atheist about some things and not

1373
00:48:50,069 --> 00:48:46,960
atheist about other things with respect

1374
00:48:51,109 --> 00:48:50,079
to god okay um some religions are are

1375
00:48:57,270 --> 00:48:51,119
atheist

1376
00:48:58,549 --> 00:48:57,280
so religion has the reputation of

1377
00:48:59,750 --> 00:48:58,559
shut up and listen to what i say and

1378
00:49:01,750 --> 00:48:59,760
don't think for yourself and don't

1379
00:49:04,549 --> 00:49:01,760
question how much of that is true i know

1380
00:49:06,470 --> 00:49:04,559
that's a straw man but how much of it is

1381
00:49:09,829 --> 00:49:06,480
how is it true how is it not true

1382
00:49:11,910 --> 00:49:09,839
yeah that's great so within um different

1383
00:49:14,630 --> 00:49:11,920
denominations of religions also let's

1384
00:49:16,470 --> 00:49:14,640
take i'm most familiar with catholicism

1385
00:49:18,069 --> 00:49:16,480
and christianity and i would say that

1386
00:49:19,829 --> 00:49:18,079
within christianity

1387
00:49:20,950 --> 00:49:19,839
um a lot

1388
00:49:24,870 --> 00:49:20,960
of

1389
00:49:27,589 --> 00:49:24,880
christianity denominations that are

1390
00:49:29,109 --> 00:49:27,599
relatively new would be like that

1391
00:49:31,750 --> 00:49:29,119
you know i'm here in the south but i

1392
00:49:33,510 --> 00:49:31,760
grew up in california and i was raised

1393
00:49:36,150 --> 00:49:33,520
you know pretty eclectic in california

1394
00:49:38,309 --> 00:49:36,160
but i'm mostly catholic right and so

1395
00:49:40,390 --> 00:49:38,319
when i came here

1396
00:49:42,230 --> 00:49:40,400
and i taught the students a lot of the

1397
00:49:44,790 --> 00:49:42,240
students in the south in the united

1398
00:49:46,950 --> 00:49:44,800
states didn't even believe or know that

1399
00:49:47,750 --> 00:49:46,960
catholicism was christianity they would

1400
00:49:49,829 --> 00:49:47,760
say

1401
00:49:51,190 --> 00:49:49,839
dr basulka what religion are you and a

1402
00:49:52,470 --> 00:49:51,200
lot of times i wouldn't tell them and i

1403
00:49:54,230 --> 00:49:52,480
say you have to i'll tell you at the end

1404
00:49:55,510 --> 00:49:54,240
of the semester but i would say okay i'm

1405
00:49:56,829 --> 00:49:55,520
catholic and they'd say oh you should

1406
00:49:59,190 --> 00:49:56,839
become a

1407
00:50:01,190 --> 00:49:59,200
christian right so they just didn't have

1408
00:50:03,030 --> 00:50:01,200
an idea they just didn't know their

1409
00:50:05,750 --> 00:50:03,040
history you know catholicism actually

1410
00:50:07,030 --> 00:50:05,760
predates their religion which is baptist

1411
00:50:09,750 --> 00:50:07,040
or something like that

1412
00:50:10,710 --> 00:50:09,760
so i would say that um probably the more

1413
00:50:12,470 --> 00:50:10,720
recent

1414
00:50:14,870 --> 00:50:12,480
christian denominations are like that

1415
00:50:16,549 --> 00:50:14,880
and obviously there are some muslim

1416
00:50:18,230 --> 00:50:16,559
denominations that are like that as well

1417
00:50:20,630 --> 00:50:18,240
or they're not at least they're not like

1418
00:50:22,549 --> 00:50:20,640
you need to belong to us but basically

1419
00:50:25,190 --> 00:50:22,559
you know we have the true

1420
00:50:28,150 --> 00:50:25,200
idea of what a religion is but not all

1421
00:50:30,710 --> 00:50:28,160
okay so a very small minority in those

1422
00:50:33,270 --> 00:50:30,720
in each of those religions

1423
00:50:34,230 --> 00:50:33,280
you won't find it at all at least

1424
00:50:37,270 --> 00:50:34,240
uh

1425
00:50:39,510 --> 00:50:37,280
historically in hinduism and hinduism

1426
00:50:41,510 --> 00:50:39,520
you know it's very regional and a lot of

1427
00:50:43,829 --> 00:50:41,520
people who are hindu would never say you

1428
00:50:44,870 --> 00:50:43,839
sh there you can even convert

1429
00:50:46,870 --> 00:50:44,880
because there are some religions that

1430
00:50:48,230 --> 00:50:46,880
you just can't ever convert to because

1431
00:50:50,150 --> 00:50:48,240
you actually have to be born into the

1432
00:50:54,069 --> 00:50:50,160
culture right why would you want to do

1433
00:50:55,510 --> 00:50:54,079
that or all roads lead to brahma right

1434
00:50:57,030 --> 00:50:55,520
so they're all you know so if you're

1435
00:50:59,190 --> 00:50:57,040
catholic be a really good catholic and

1436
00:51:02,069 --> 00:50:59,200
you can you can reach moksha

1437
00:51:03,589 --> 00:51:02,079
that's the idea okay so so a lot of

1438
00:51:04,870 --> 00:51:03,599
people in

1439
00:51:06,630 --> 00:51:04,880
north america

1440
00:51:08,870 --> 00:51:06,640
canada united states they don't

1441
00:51:10,470 --> 00:51:08,880
understand the variety of religious

1442
00:51:12,390 --> 00:51:10,480
belief

1443
00:51:14,549 --> 00:51:12,400
and that's what i'd like to convey to

1444
00:51:16,309 --> 00:51:14,559
people you know they if people knew that

1445
00:51:17,430 --> 00:51:16,319
more and even religious people they

1446
00:51:19,190 --> 00:51:17,440
don't even know that like a lot of

1447
00:51:20,630 --> 00:51:19,200
religious people they you know it

1448
00:51:22,390 --> 00:51:20,640
depends on which type of religion

1449
00:51:23,349 --> 00:51:22,400
they're from but

1450
00:51:25,589 --> 00:51:23,359
you know they

1451
00:51:27,910 --> 00:51:25,599
they have these own perceptions of what

1452
00:51:29,910 --> 00:51:27,920
religion is as well

1453
00:51:32,069 --> 00:51:29,920
i was speaking to coleman hughes and he

1454
00:51:33,589 --> 00:51:32,079
was telling me that kurt look these

1455
00:51:35,109 --> 00:51:33,599
conversations that you and i are having

1456
00:51:36,630 --> 00:51:35,119
right now these are not the kind of

1457
00:51:37,510 --> 00:51:36,640
conversations that you can have in a

1458
00:51:40,630 --> 00:51:37,520
church

1459
00:51:42,549 --> 00:51:40,640
you should believe and and they're

1460
00:51:44,309 --> 00:51:42,559
dogmatic and so on and i told them that

1461
00:51:45,829 --> 00:51:44,319
you'd be extremely surprised and then he

1462
00:51:47,430 --> 00:51:45,839
said well most

1463
00:51:49,030 --> 00:51:47,440
of it is the case or most religions are

1464
00:51:51,030 --> 00:51:49,040
like that i don't know if that's that's

1465
00:51:52,870 --> 00:51:51,040
actually true but even if that's true

1466
00:51:55,670 --> 00:51:52,880
then my question to him was what because

1467
00:51:57,270 --> 00:51:55,680
i imagine it's 70 true maybe 30 percent

1468
00:51:58,950 --> 00:51:57,280
are extremely open-minded and allow

1469
00:52:00,790 --> 00:51:58,960
inquiry like this even questioning of

1470
00:52:01,829 --> 00:52:00,800
god and so on the history of philosophy

1471
00:52:03,190 --> 00:52:01,839
is filled with people who consider

1472
00:52:05,349 --> 00:52:03,200
themselves christians who are even

1473
00:52:07,589 --> 00:52:05,359
questioning in their work does god exist

1474
00:52:08,870 --> 00:52:07,599
so it's not actually true that you can't

1475
00:52:10,390 --> 00:52:08,880
question

1476
00:52:11,910 --> 00:52:10,400
the foundational aspects of your

1477
00:52:14,390 --> 00:52:11,920
religion and still be a member of that

1478
00:52:17,030 --> 00:52:14,400
religion then the broader question to me

1479
00:52:20,069 --> 00:52:17,040
comes well at what percentage at what

1480
00:52:21,990 --> 00:52:20,079
point do you say religion says so and so

1481
00:52:23,829 --> 00:52:22,000
because a large enough percentage of

1482
00:52:25,670 --> 00:52:23,839
people who are religious believe so and

1483
00:52:27,430 --> 00:52:25,680
so well it's more of a category question

1484
00:52:30,230 --> 00:52:27,440
so if ten percent of people have

1485
00:52:31,990 --> 00:52:30,240
deviating points of view then do you

1486
00:52:32,870 --> 00:52:32,000
okay well forget about that i don't know

1487
00:52:34,549 --> 00:52:32,880
how to

1488
00:52:35,589 --> 00:52:34,559
do you excommunicate them is that what

1489
00:52:37,030 --> 00:52:35,599
you're asking

1490
00:52:39,990 --> 00:52:37,040
so it's more like at what point do you

1491
00:52:42,549 --> 00:52:40,000
generalize enough to say religion says

1492
00:52:44,309 --> 00:52:42,559
so and so because 70 of people who

1493
00:52:45,670 --> 00:52:44,319
consider themselves to be religious say

1494
00:52:48,230 --> 00:52:45,680
it you probably wouldn't say religion

1495
00:52:50,150 --> 00:52:48,240
says so and so 50 of people believed i

1496
00:52:52,549 --> 00:52:50,160
wouldn't even say religion says so you

1497
00:52:54,309 --> 00:52:52,559
can't even say that because which you

1498
00:52:55,430 --> 00:52:54,319
have to specifically say that's like

1499
00:52:57,510 --> 00:52:55,440
saying

1500
00:53:00,150 --> 00:52:57,520
humans say so right because well which

1501
00:53:02,150 --> 00:53:00,160
humans americans canadians you know um

1502
00:53:04,309 --> 00:53:02,160
people from europe or you know

1503
00:53:06,069 --> 00:53:04,319
uh saudi arabia

1504
00:53:07,190 --> 00:53:06,079
so you have to identify which religion

1505
00:53:09,030 --> 00:53:07,200
because if you went to buddhist

1506
00:53:11,030 --> 00:53:09,040
countries even like say japanese

1507
00:53:13,270 --> 00:53:11,040
buddhism and you said you know they're

1508
00:53:15,030 --> 00:53:13,280
not going to be telling you about

1509
00:53:17,430 --> 00:53:15,040
believing in a god they will be telling

1510
00:53:19,270 --> 00:53:17,440
you to question everything to the point

1511
00:53:21,829 --> 00:53:19,280
you know what i'm saying so those kind

1512
00:53:24,549 --> 00:53:21,839
of you know so there are so many

1513
00:53:26,870 --> 00:53:24,559
forms of religion that i think that you

1514
00:53:28,470 --> 00:53:26,880
can't say religion says this

1515
00:53:30,710 --> 00:53:28,480
you can basically say

1516
00:53:32,950 --> 00:53:30,720
religion at this point in time

1517
00:53:35,030 --> 00:53:32,960
in 1980

1518
00:53:37,589 --> 00:53:35,040
in north carolina

1519
00:53:39,670 --> 00:53:37,599
you know in wilmington

1520
00:53:41,109 --> 00:53:39,680
baptists will say that if you don't

1521
00:53:42,630 --> 00:53:41,119
believe this you're going to go to hell

1522
00:53:44,230 --> 00:53:42,640
or something like that that's probably

1523
00:53:46,309 --> 00:53:44,240
you know you can you have to be really

1524
00:53:48,549 --> 00:53:46,319
specific instead of general and you have

1525
00:53:51,510 --> 00:53:48,559
to take it by a case-by-case basis but

1526
00:53:53,670 --> 00:53:51,520
in my opinion i would say that

1527
00:53:54,829 --> 00:53:53,680
people who are religious

1528
00:53:58,230 --> 00:53:54,839
um

1529
00:53:59,670 --> 00:53:58,240
mostly are not going they're going to

1530
00:54:01,910 --> 00:53:59,680
allow for

1531
00:54:04,390 --> 00:54:01,920
i would say even 70

1532
00:54:05,510 --> 00:54:04,400
they're going to allow for you to

1533
00:54:07,990 --> 00:54:05,520
question

1534
00:54:09,670 --> 00:54:08,000
everything because that's how because in

1535
00:54:11,750 --> 00:54:09,680
a lot of religions if you go to the

1536
00:54:12,950 --> 00:54:11,760
mystical traditions almost in almost in

1537
00:54:15,430 --> 00:54:12,960
every religion there's a mystical

1538
00:54:17,589 --> 00:54:15,440
tradition if even in philosophy there's

1539
00:54:19,270 --> 00:54:17,599
a mystical tradition and that mystical

1540
00:54:21,510 --> 00:54:19,280
tradition is generally questioning

1541
00:54:24,710 --> 00:54:21,520
everything okay that's how one comes

1542
00:54:26,390 --> 00:54:24,720
upon this mysticism like whoa like what

1543
00:54:29,270 --> 00:54:26,400
you know this question

1544
00:54:31,829 --> 00:54:29,280
and i think that um

1545
00:54:33,670 --> 00:54:31,839
that that's the goal

1546
00:54:36,309 --> 00:54:33,680
because once one does that that's when

1547
00:54:38,790 --> 00:54:36,319
one is open to these kinds of highly

1548
00:54:41,349 --> 00:54:38,800
creative events

1549
00:54:43,990 --> 00:54:41,359
earlier we mentioned dogma dogmatic has

1550
00:54:45,670 --> 00:54:44,000
a reputation in our educated culture as

1551
00:54:47,270 --> 00:54:45,680
being a net negative has little

1552
00:54:48,710 --> 00:54:47,280
redeeming qualities other than maybe to

1553
00:54:50,390 --> 00:54:48,720
regulate the populace and that's

1554
00:54:52,710 --> 00:54:50,400
actually a negative anyway so can you

1555
00:54:55,349 --> 00:54:52,720
steal man dogma can you make the case

1556
00:54:58,549 --> 00:54:55,359
for dogma

1557
00:55:00,150 --> 00:54:58,559
you're saying can i add no no i don't

1558
00:55:02,230 --> 00:55:00,160
think the more rational types would say

1559
00:55:04,470 --> 00:55:02,240
that so-and-so is dogmatic that means

1560
00:55:07,430 --> 00:55:04,480
it's a disgraceful quality and i don't

1561
00:55:09,589 --> 00:55:07,440
think that dogma itself is a negative i

1562
00:55:12,309 --> 00:55:09,599
think it can be out of balance yeah how

1563
00:55:15,430 --> 00:55:12,319
does okay so what is a dogma so a dogma

1564
00:55:18,309 --> 00:55:15,440
is a belief that becomes central to

1565
00:55:20,630 --> 00:55:18,319
an institution okay so in the united

1566
00:55:22,790 --> 00:55:20,640
states we have this constitution

1567
00:55:23,750 --> 00:55:22,800
and you know all humans are created

1568
00:55:26,470 --> 00:55:23,760
equal

1569
00:55:28,710 --> 00:55:26,480
um that that may or may not be true but

1570
00:55:30,230 --> 00:55:28,720
that's absolutely a dogma

1571
00:55:31,990 --> 00:55:30,240
it's it's a

1572
00:55:34,309 --> 00:55:32,000
you know it's it's ingrained in

1573
00:55:36,150 --> 00:55:34,319
americans so if you're born here you

1574
00:55:37,910 --> 00:55:36,160
grew up listening to that and you

1575
00:55:40,069 --> 00:55:37,920
believe that all human beings are

1576
00:55:42,309 --> 00:55:40,079
created equal okay and then when human

1577
00:55:44,150 --> 00:55:42,319
beings are not created or not treated

1578
00:55:46,790 --> 00:55:44,160
equally you hold that up and you say

1579
00:55:48,789 --> 00:55:46,800
wait a minute this is what we believe

1580
00:55:51,109 --> 00:55:48,799
and therefore we must act this way and

1581
00:55:53,030 --> 00:55:51,119
if if we're not acting that way then

1582
00:55:55,510 --> 00:55:53,040
there's a problem okay so that would be

1583
00:55:57,510 --> 00:55:55,520
a dogma and a dogma isn't necessarily

1584
00:55:59,510 --> 00:55:57,520
true or false it's just basically

1585
00:56:01,430 --> 00:55:59,520
something that all these people hold to

1586
00:56:03,510 --> 00:56:01,440
be true

1587
00:56:05,190 --> 00:56:03,520
and then we must it's like a belief

1588
00:56:08,230 --> 00:56:05,200
right we talked about the definition of

1589
00:56:10,710 --> 00:56:08,240
belief earlier and then we and we

1590
00:56:13,349 --> 00:56:10,720
we call it like a self-evident truth

1591
00:56:14,150 --> 00:56:13,359
that's like a dogma right self-evident

1592
00:56:16,069 --> 00:56:14,160
right

1593
00:56:17,990 --> 00:56:16,079
um but it doesn't necessarily mean that

1594
00:56:19,990 --> 00:56:18,000
it's actually true now to become

1595
00:56:22,150 --> 00:56:20,000
dogmatic means that

1596
00:56:24,789 --> 00:56:22,160
say let's take the catholic church as an

1597
00:56:27,030 --> 00:56:24,799
example since i've studied that um

1598
00:56:30,069 --> 00:56:27,040
within the catholic church purgatory is

1599
00:56:32,230 --> 00:56:30,079
a dogma right the belief in purgatory

1600
00:56:34,069 --> 00:56:32,240
you must believe you must believe in

1601
00:56:35,829 --> 00:56:34,079
this place called purgatory else you're

1602
00:56:37,190 --> 00:56:35,839
not a catholic or else you go to hell or

1603
00:56:40,150 --> 00:56:37,200
what is it what is the house there yeah

1604
00:56:41,829 --> 00:56:40,160
so basically you're not a um you're not

1605
00:56:42,829 --> 00:56:41,839
a catholic following

1606
00:56:45,670 --> 00:56:42,839
catholic

1607
00:56:48,390 --> 00:56:45,680
uh doctrine

1608
00:56:49,589 --> 00:56:48,400
okay okay so you could you could

1609
00:56:51,510 --> 00:56:49,599
feasibly

1610
00:56:53,430 --> 00:56:51,520
be excommunicated or something like that

1611
00:56:54,470 --> 00:56:53,440
i doubt that would ever happen because

1612
00:56:57,510 --> 00:56:54,480
now people don't even know what

1613
00:56:59,030 --> 00:56:57,520
purgatory is catholics or anyone right

1614
00:57:01,030 --> 00:56:59,040
so but it's still there it's still a

1615
00:57:03,109 --> 00:57:01,040
dogma so that's what my question was

1616
00:57:05,109 --> 00:57:03,119
back in the day was like wait a minute

1617
00:57:07,750 --> 00:57:05,119
people used to do this all the time

1618
00:57:09,829 --> 00:57:07,760
right and even you know our grandparents

1619
00:57:11,349 --> 00:57:09,839
are like pray for the souls in purgatory

1620
00:57:14,630 --> 00:57:11,359
like we don't even know what that means

1621
00:57:16,870 --> 00:57:14,640
what does it even mean okay so um

1622
00:57:18,549 --> 00:57:16,880
so that dog must seem to have

1623
00:57:20,549 --> 00:57:18,559
disappeared

1624
00:57:22,870 --> 00:57:20,559
but it hasn't actually the church is a

1625
00:57:24,789 --> 00:57:22,880
lot it will probably never get rid of it

1626
00:57:26,630 --> 00:57:24,799
so it's still a dogma but it's just not

1627
00:57:28,150 --> 00:57:26,640
one that's practiced

1628
00:57:30,390 --> 00:57:28,160
does that shed light a little bit on

1629
00:57:32,309 --> 00:57:30,400
dogma yeah and what's the method that

1630
00:57:34,630 --> 00:57:32,319
dogma changes like what's the updating

1631
00:57:36,870 --> 00:57:34,640
mechanism for dogma because it sounds to

1632
00:57:38,789 --> 00:57:36,880
me the word dogma would imply that it's

1633
00:57:40,950 --> 00:57:38,799
set in stone this is the way it is so

1634
00:57:42,549 --> 00:57:40,960
how can you ever change it yeah i know

1635
00:57:44,309 --> 00:57:42,559
that's really a good question and i

1636
00:57:46,950 --> 00:57:44,319
think that this is how it works frankly

1637
00:57:49,190 --> 00:57:46,960
this is what i showed in my book about

1638
00:57:51,349 --> 00:57:49,200
purgatory is i showed that

1639
00:57:52,789 --> 00:57:51,359
when did purgatory become a dogma well

1640
00:57:55,109 --> 00:57:52,799
it wasn't there from the very beginning

1641
00:57:57,030 --> 00:57:55,119
believe it or not okay so i think the

1642
00:57:59,990 --> 00:57:57,040
catholic church this is how it views

1643
00:58:03,750 --> 00:58:00,000
purgatory is that purgatory is an actual

1644
00:58:05,430 --> 00:58:03,760
state that souls do go to okay and it's

1645
00:58:06,390 --> 00:58:05,440
objective of humans

1646
00:58:09,589 --> 00:58:06,400
therefore

1647
00:58:11,990 --> 00:58:09,599
purgatory was like discovered or found

1648
00:58:14,870 --> 00:58:12,000
in the 1200s right

1649
00:58:16,789 --> 00:58:14,880
all right so that's kind of the the idea

1650
00:58:18,870 --> 00:58:16,799
or let's put it like this is kind of the

1651
00:58:20,870 --> 00:58:18,880
um the unwritten history of purgatory

1652
00:58:23,190 --> 00:58:20,880
this is just how people think about it

1653
00:58:25,349 --> 00:58:23,200
that's really not what happened kurt if

1654
00:58:28,069 --> 00:58:25,359
you go back you'll find that people

1655
00:58:30,870 --> 00:58:28,079
actually went to specific places where

1656
00:58:33,270 --> 00:58:30,880
they would go into caves underground if

1657
00:58:35,349 --> 00:58:33,280
they were particularly bad people okay

1658
00:58:37,430 --> 00:58:35,359
say like they've killed people their

1659
00:58:39,670 --> 00:58:37,440
bishop would send them to a place in

1660
00:58:43,190 --> 00:58:39,680
ireland and there was also a place in

1661
00:58:45,349 --> 00:58:43,200
italy um where there was a cave and it's

1662
00:58:47,910 --> 00:58:45,359
still there by the way in uh ireland

1663
00:58:50,230 --> 00:58:47,920
it's called lochderg and it's a place

1664
00:58:51,589 --> 00:58:50,240
called um it's on a lake and it's an

1665
00:58:54,069 --> 00:58:51,599
island on a lake it's called saint

1666
00:58:57,750 --> 00:58:54,079
patrick's purgatory and this is in the

1667
00:58:59,670 --> 00:58:57,760
10th tens and 1100s and bad people would

1668
00:59:01,990 --> 00:58:59,680
have to go spend the night in that cave

1669
00:59:04,630 --> 00:59:02,000
and if they survived that cave they

1670
00:59:06,390 --> 00:59:04,640
would have been purged of their sins

1671
00:59:08,470 --> 00:59:06,400
and so purgatory actually came from

1672
00:59:10,069 --> 00:59:08,480
these weird these i wish i shouldn't say

1673
00:59:12,470 --> 00:59:10,079
weird because we still do things like

1674
00:59:15,109 --> 00:59:12,480
this you know like i'll be good you know

1675
00:59:16,950 --> 00:59:15,119
i won't eat any bad food for 10 days and

1676
00:59:18,630 --> 00:59:16,960
then hopefully this good result will

1677
00:59:20,630 --> 00:59:18,640
happen kind of thing right so we kind of

1678
00:59:22,870 --> 00:59:20,640
do those kinds of things all right so

1679
00:59:23,910 --> 00:59:22,880
that's so purgatory actually came from

1680
00:59:26,230 --> 00:59:23,920
some

1681
00:59:28,150 --> 00:59:26,240
basic practices that people did like

1682
00:59:30,630 --> 00:59:28,160
physical practices

1683
00:59:32,230 --> 00:59:30,640
so there's actually a physical place

1684
00:59:34,150 --> 00:59:32,240
quick question about that what was it

1685
00:59:36,069 --> 00:59:34,160
about the cave that was so dangerous

1686
00:59:38,390 --> 00:59:36,079
that made it unlikely or difficult for

1687
00:59:39,750 --> 00:59:38,400
one to survive the night there

1688
00:59:41,829 --> 00:59:39,760
i think part of it was just the

1689
00:59:43,430 --> 00:59:41,839
claustrophobia of going into this cave

1690
00:59:45,109 --> 00:59:43,440
for 24 hours you couldn't eat you

1691
00:59:48,309 --> 00:59:45,119
couldn't drink it's probably pretty

1692
00:59:50,710 --> 00:59:48,319
scary um but also people believed in

1693
00:59:52,150 --> 00:59:50,720
spirits and demons right and that

1694
00:59:54,230 --> 00:59:52,160
perhaps they would meet spirits and

1695
00:59:56,870 --> 00:59:54,240
demons in that cave and there was a very

1696
00:59:59,270 --> 00:59:56,880
famous um book called st patrick's

1697
01:00:01,349 --> 00:59:59,280
purgatory written by a chris

1698
01:00:03,190 --> 01:00:01,359
basically about a crusader knight who

1699
01:00:04,309 --> 01:00:03,200
went into the cave and fought demons and

1700
01:00:05,990 --> 01:00:04,319
things like that it was actually a

1701
01:00:07,349 --> 01:00:06,000
medieval bestseller

1702
01:00:10,870 --> 01:00:07,359
and a lot of people read it in fact

1703
01:00:12,390 --> 01:00:10,880
dante read it and based purgatorio on

1704
01:00:15,030 --> 01:00:12,400
this right

1705
01:00:17,750 --> 01:00:15,040
so this was pre-dante and this is where

1706
01:00:19,270 --> 01:00:17,760
the dogma of purgatory derived now how

1707
01:00:22,309 --> 01:00:19,280
did it leave

1708
01:00:23,750 --> 01:00:22,319
well it a dogma goes away through time

1709
01:00:25,670 --> 01:00:23,760
when people just

1710
01:00:27,510 --> 01:00:25,680
stop knowing where it came from in the

1711
01:00:29,589 --> 01:00:27,520
first place and what it's about i think

1712
01:00:31,829 --> 01:00:29,599
it's just a natural thing things aren't

1713
01:00:33,750 --> 01:00:31,839
written in stone they come and go so a

1714
01:00:35,670 --> 01:00:33,760
lot of people say well the doctrines and

1715
01:00:37,589 --> 01:00:35,680
truths of the church never change well

1716
01:00:40,230 --> 01:00:37,599
they look like they change at least how

1717
01:00:43,030 --> 01:00:40,240
we believe in them changes

1718
01:00:45,109 --> 01:00:43,040
so yeah when i was researching you i was

1719
01:00:47,030 --> 01:00:45,119
so pleased to see you mention heidegger

1720
01:00:48,710 --> 01:00:47,040
because not many people do especially

1721
01:00:49,990 --> 01:00:48,720
not in the ufo scene

1722
01:00:51,589 --> 01:00:50,000
what the heck does heidegger have to do

1723
01:00:53,430 --> 01:00:51,599
with ufos

1724
01:00:54,789 --> 01:00:53,440
yeah that's for sure

1725
01:00:56,470 --> 01:00:54,799
and you mentioned that there's something

1726
01:00:57,670 --> 01:00:56,480
about technology

1727
01:00:59,750 --> 01:00:57,680
and the

1728
01:01:02,150 --> 01:00:59,760
and not viewing them instrumentally

1729
01:01:05,190 --> 01:01:02,160
that heidegger had and i would like you

1730
01:01:07,750 --> 01:01:05,200
to expand on that please yeah sure so um

1731
01:01:09,670 --> 01:01:07,760
heidegger i like heidegger and a lot of

1732
01:01:11,990 --> 01:01:09,680
colleagues of mine hate heidegger and

1733
01:01:14,150 --> 01:01:12,000
heidegger's kind of you know demonized

1734
01:01:16,150 --> 01:01:14,160
in philosophy because this is what

1735
01:01:17,589 --> 01:01:16,160
happened to him he's really interesting

1736
01:01:19,270 --> 01:01:17,599
so he was you know he hung out with

1737
01:01:22,549 --> 01:01:19,280
dickenstein and people like that in

1738
01:01:24,950 --> 01:01:22,559
philosophy and he was a straight-up like

1739
01:01:26,950 --> 01:01:24,960
rationalist philosopher okay

1740
01:01:28,870 --> 01:01:26,960
and then strangely enough he actually

1741
01:01:31,030 --> 01:01:28,880
hung out with zen buddhists

1742
01:01:33,349 --> 01:01:31,040
so there's a school in japan called the

1743
01:01:34,470 --> 01:01:33,359
kyoto school of zen buddhism and the

1744
01:01:36,710 --> 01:01:34,480
people that were part of that school

1745
01:01:38,470 --> 01:01:36,720
were also philosophers so they and

1746
01:01:39,990 --> 01:01:38,480
heidegger would have conversations and

1747
01:01:43,190 --> 01:01:40,000
heidegger actually had a mystical

1748
01:01:46,549 --> 01:01:43,200
experience and after that he started to

1749
01:01:48,470 --> 01:01:46,559
do exactly what socrates used to do and

1750
01:01:49,910 --> 01:01:48,480
that's why he though if you look at his

1751
01:01:52,470 --> 01:01:49,920
work you'll see that it was like

1752
01:01:55,109 --> 01:01:52,480
straight up kind of boring philosophy

1753
01:01:57,030 --> 01:01:55,119
until all of a sudden he started to name

1754
01:01:58,150 --> 01:01:57,040
everything that he wrote it was a

1755
01:02:00,309 --> 01:01:58,160
question

1756
01:02:03,829 --> 01:02:00,319
what is technology

1757
01:02:06,309 --> 01:02:03,839
what is an object okay and so he went at

1758
01:02:08,549 --> 01:02:06,319
it in a socratic fashion uh basically

1759
01:02:11,510 --> 01:02:08,559
you know what socratic dialogue is right

1760
01:02:13,190 --> 01:02:11,520
so the process of okay so um

1761
01:02:16,230 --> 01:02:13,200
it's a process

1762
01:02:18,870 --> 01:02:16,240
but the process is basically to ask

1763
01:02:21,030 --> 01:02:18,880
and we're not gonna find out we're gonna

1764
01:02:22,950 --> 01:02:21,040
find out more about it but there's gonna

1765
01:02:25,109 --> 01:02:22,960
be a point we're gonna say i don't know

1766
01:02:27,270 --> 01:02:25,119
what the heck that is right i don't know

1767
01:02:28,630 --> 01:02:27,280
what it is and that's what socrates

1768
01:02:31,030 --> 01:02:28,640
would say and that's why socrates was

1769
01:02:32,630 --> 01:02:31,040
supposed to be the man who was the most

1770
01:02:35,190 --> 01:02:32,640
intelligent man in the world because he

1771
01:02:38,230 --> 01:02:35,200
said he didn't know and he was honest

1772
01:02:41,030 --> 01:02:38,240
and also really smart i don't know

1773
01:02:43,270 --> 01:02:41,040
so i think dogma is knowing

1774
01:02:45,430 --> 01:02:43,280
and that's why it has a bad name because

1775
01:02:47,430 --> 01:02:45,440
i think at heart we all know because

1776
01:02:50,150 --> 01:02:47,440
this is the question that that heidegger

1777
01:02:51,750 --> 01:02:50,160
wanted to revisit why is there something

1778
01:02:53,670 --> 01:02:51,760
rather than nothing

1779
01:02:55,990 --> 01:02:53,680
like why are we here

1780
01:02:58,710 --> 01:02:56,000
rather than why are we self-conscious so

1781
01:03:00,309 --> 01:02:58,720
he's basically coming at this question

1782
01:03:02,549 --> 01:03:00,319
and questing everything right

1783
01:03:03,990 --> 01:03:02,559
questioning what is art

1784
01:03:05,990 --> 01:03:04,000
well you know i mean he was one of the

1785
01:03:07,829 --> 01:03:06,000
first philosophers to really get into

1786
01:03:10,069 --> 01:03:07,839
this question of technology and he

1787
01:03:13,990 --> 01:03:10,079
actually in my opinion he was visionary

1788
01:03:16,069 --> 01:03:14,000
because he basically saw technology as

1789
01:03:17,430 --> 01:03:16,079
basically becoming our infrastructure

1790
01:03:20,549 --> 01:03:17,440
and also

1791
01:03:22,630 --> 01:03:20,559
more than that right so he when i don't

1792
01:03:24,950 --> 01:03:22,640
know if you've ever read the essay what

1793
01:03:27,430 --> 01:03:24,960
is technology but he goes back and he he

1794
01:03:28,630 --> 01:03:27,440
talks about it with respect to

1795
01:03:31,750 --> 01:03:28,640
the um

1796
01:03:33,589 --> 01:03:31,760
the greek temple so for the greek temple

1797
01:03:34,470 --> 01:03:33,599
you know for the greeks the temple

1798
01:03:39,109 --> 01:03:34,480
housed

1799
01:03:40,309 --> 01:03:39,119
sacred right okay and then he goes

1800
01:03:41,990 --> 01:03:40,319
through the medieval time period

1801
01:03:44,150 --> 01:03:42,000
heidegger and he says

1802
01:03:45,750 --> 01:03:44,160
for the catholics it was the cathedral

1803
01:03:48,390 --> 01:03:45,760
that housed god

1804
01:03:50,230 --> 01:03:48,400
he said with technology what's going to

1805
01:03:53,349 --> 01:03:50,240
house technology he was looking at

1806
01:03:55,190 --> 01:03:53,359
technology as a new form of the sacred

1807
01:03:57,109 --> 01:03:55,200
and that's what i found fascinating

1808
01:03:59,670 --> 01:03:57,119
that's what led me to jacques valet

1809
01:04:01,349 --> 01:03:59,680
actually meaning that it's an interface

1810
01:04:03,990 --> 01:04:01,359
but what do you mean when you say that

1811
01:04:07,589 --> 01:04:04,000
the technology house is the sacred

1812
01:04:10,470 --> 01:04:07,599
okay yeah that is going to determine how

1813
01:04:12,789 --> 01:04:10,480
we live in the world and how we um

1814
01:04:15,349 --> 01:04:12,799
like our relationship with the world

1815
01:04:17,589 --> 01:04:15,359
life is going to be so as a catholic

1816
01:04:20,069 --> 01:04:17,599
media medieval catholic your

1817
01:04:22,470 --> 01:04:20,079
relationship was with the world was

1818
01:04:24,710 --> 01:04:22,480
basically you the belief structure of

1819
01:04:27,029 --> 01:04:24,720
the catholic church which you know you

1820
01:04:30,390 --> 01:04:27,039
encountered god in the cathedral

1821
01:04:32,150 --> 01:04:30,400
and then supposedly from that experience

1822
01:04:33,670 --> 01:04:32,160
your experience like you know going to

1823
01:04:36,069 --> 01:04:33,680
the purgatory cave or something like

1824
01:04:38,069 --> 01:04:36,079
that you it determined the way in which

1825
01:04:39,829 --> 01:04:38,079
you lived in the world so heidegger was

1826
01:04:42,069 --> 01:04:39,839
basically saying what that was for the

1827
01:04:44,630 --> 01:04:42,079
greeks being a temple

1828
01:04:46,870 --> 01:04:44,640
and it was for the cathedral was for the

1829
01:04:48,549 --> 01:04:46,880
catholics technology is going to be for

1830
01:04:50,309 --> 01:04:48,559
the people of the future and he was

1831
01:04:52,630 --> 01:04:50,319
basically saying you know his grandkids

1832
01:04:55,589 --> 01:04:52,640
or something like that it's coming is

1833
01:04:58,150 --> 01:04:55,599
what he was saying but you know he also

1834
01:04:59,589 --> 01:04:58,160
envisioned something really bad on the

1835
01:05:02,390 --> 01:04:59,599
horizon

1836
01:05:04,390 --> 01:05:02,400
and um i'm not quite sure what it was

1837
01:05:06,549 --> 01:05:04,400
that he envisioned but it wasn't good

1838
01:05:08,230 --> 01:05:06,559
because i end my book with a quote from

1839
01:05:10,309 --> 01:05:08,240
heidegger and he didn't actually want

1840
01:05:11,270 --> 01:05:10,319
that quote he didn't want that quote

1841
01:05:14,069 --> 01:05:11,280
known

1842
01:05:16,470 --> 01:05:14,079
until he died and then when he died he

1843
01:05:17,990 --> 01:05:16,480
that quote could be published and the

1844
01:05:21,829 --> 01:05:18,000
the quote is

1845
01:05:23,750 --> 01:05:21,839
um only a god can save us now

1846
01:05:26,069 --> 01:05:23,760
and when he said god he wasn't meaning

1847
01:05:27,589 --> 01:05:26,079
the kind of straw man god of dawkins

1848
01:05:30,230 --> 01:05:27,599
religion no

1849
01:05:33,190 --> 01:05:30,240
he was meaning something entirely like a

1850
01:05:35,270 --> 01:05:33,200
mutation or something that was you know

1851
01:05:38,230 --> 01:05:35,280
something that was so far out of our own

1852
01:05:39,430 --> 01:05:38,240
experience of humans that that you know

1853
01:05:41,270 --> 01:05:39,440
it would be

1854
01:05:43,510 --> 01:05:41,280
it would save us basically it's like if

1855
01:05:44,710 --> 01:05:43,520
this was a story it would be like a deus

1856
01:05:47,910 --> 01:05:44,720
ex machina

1857
01:05:49,430 --> 01:05:47,920
yeah yeah yeah that would be it yeah

1858
01:05:52,710 --> 01:05:49,440
okay you mentioned this was related to

1859
01:05:55,910 --> 01:05:52,720
jacques valley yeah okay so um all right

1860
01:05:58,710 --> 01:05:55,920
so heidegger has always been some uh you

1861
01:06:01,190 --> 01:05:58,720
know his his uh work was fascinating to

1862
01:06:02,470 --> 01:06:01,200
me just as hannah and rents work she and

1863
01:06:04,390 --> 01:06:02,480
he were

1864
01:06:05,589 --> 01:06:04,400
she learned from him he was her

1865
01:06:08,630 --> 01:06:05,599
professor

1866
01:06:11,430 --> 01:06:08,640
and so um

1867
01:06:14,630 --> 01:06:11,440
these kind of these

1868
01:06:16,870 --> 01:06:14,640
these uh philosophers formed a lot of

1869
01:06:19,270 --> 01:06:16,880
how i looked at things because i grew up

1870
01:06:21,750 --> 01:06:19,280
in california near

1871
01:06:23,510 --> 01:06:21,760
well in the dot com

1872
01:06:25,190 --> 01:06:23,520
you know this was like my

1873
01:06:27,670 --> 01:06:25,200
meal you i guess you could say my social

1874
01:06:29,829 --> 01:06:27,680
media was um the 90s with you know the

1875
01:06:31,430 --> 01:06:29,839
dot com stuff and everything like that

1876
01:06:34,069 --> 01:06:31,440
and i lived there that's where i lived

1877
01:06:37,109 --> 01:06:34,079
is in northern california so i got to

1878
01:06:38,309 --> 01:06:37,119
see kind of technology take off right

1879
01:06:40,390 --> 01:06:38,319
um

1880
01:06:42,470 --> 01:06:40,400
and

1881
01:06:43,829 --> 01:06:42,480
i also so so heidegger was always on the

1882
01:06:44,789 --> 01:06:43,839
back burner

1883
01:06:46,870 --> 01:06:44,799
right

1884
01:06:48,870 --> 01:06:46,880
um

1885
01:06:50,470 --> 01:06:48,880
and then i met and then when i was done

1886
01:06:52,150 --> 01:06:50,480
with my book oh by the way i think he

1887
01:06:53,910 --> 01:06:52,160
had a catholic burial so he wasn't

1888
01:06:55,589 --> 01:06:53,920
actually a practicing catholic but he

1889
01:06:58,230 --> 01:06:55,599
made sure that he had a catholic burial

1890
01:07:00,870 --> 01:06:58,240
which i always found fascinating so okay

1891
01:07:03,750 --> 01:07:00,880
so what happens then after okay so

1892
01:07:06,549 --> 01:07:03,760
jacques okay i attend this first i i

1893
01:07:09,910 --> 01:07:06,559
knew about jacques work because he wrote

1894
01:07:12,150 --> 01:07:09,920
um a book um passport to magonia

1895
01:07:13,670 --> 01:07:12,160
yeah for some reason i thought john mack

1896
01:07:15,589 --> 01:07:13,680
wrote that

1897
01:07:17,750 --> 01:07:15,599
oh no john mack wrote passport to the

1898
01:07:18,950 --> 01:07:17,760
cosmos a reference

1899
01:07:19,910 --> 01:07:18,960
to

1900
01:07:22,870 --> 01:07:19,920
uh

1901
01:07:24,710 --> 01:07:22,880
jacques passport to magonia so i read

1902
01:07:26,870 --> 01:07:24,720
passport to magonia and it to me it felt

1903
01:07:29,670 --> 01:07:26,880
like i was reading my book on purgatory

1904
01:07:31,750 --> 01:07:29,680
and so i reached out to him through um

1905
01:07:33,910 --> 01:07:31,760
hard mail right like snail mail i wrote

1906
01:07:35,349 --> 01:07:33,920
him a letter and i sent it to him and i

1907
01:07:37,750 --> 01:07:35,359
said i wonder if you'd talk to me

1908
01:07:40,150 --> 01:07:37,760
because i'm in california a lot and he

1909
01:07:42,470 --> 01:07:40,160
said yes so um

1910
01:07:44,230 --> 01:07:42,480
so we started a correspondence he was

1911
01:07:45,670 --> 01:07:44,240
fascinated with my research because he

1912
01:07:48,150 --> 01:07:45,680
wanted to see

1913
01:07:49,750 --> 01:07:48,160
the primary sources for a lot of the

1914
01:07:52,230 --> 01:07:49,760
catholic you know because he's from a

1915
01:07:54,309 --> 01:07:52,240
catholic country and has that you know

1916
01:07:57,349 --> 01:07:54,319
um was able to read latin and that kind

1917
01:07:59,349 --> 01:07:57,359
of thing so um i shared a lot of my

1918
01:08:00,549 --> 01:07:59,359
my work with him

1919
01:08:02,789 --> 01:08:00,559
and

1920
01:08:04,710 --> 01:08:02,799
i went to a conference where i was it

1921
01:08:06,069 --> 01:08:04,720
was a small conference in california and

1922
01:08:08,309 --> 01:08:06,079
jacques was there

1923
01:08:10,390 --> 01:08:08,319
and it occurred to me what i thought was

1924
01:08:12,710 --> 01:08:10,400
really odd was that jacques wasn't only

1925
01:08:14,630 --> 01:08:12,720
a person who was interested in ufos

1926
01:08:16,470 --> 01:08:14,640
but he was also a person who was pretty

1927
01:08:18,950 --> 01:08:16,480
instrumental in the creation of

1928
01:08:21,110 --> 01:08:18,960
technology in our country

1929
01:08:22,789 --> 01:08:21,120
and he you know he had a phd in

1930
01:08:25,349 --> 01:08:22,799
information science from northwestern in

1931
01:08:27,669 --> 01:08:25,359
the 1960s i mean you know so he's at the

1932
01:08:29,030 --> 01:08:27,679
very beginning of two

1933
01:08:32,390 --> 01:08:29,040
absolutely

1934
01:08:35,590 --> 01:08:32,400
on what i think are inexplicably related

1935
01:08:37,110 --> 01:08:35,600
things ufos and technology like this

1936
01:08:40,390 --> 01:08:37,120
belief it's almost as if the belief in

1937
01:08:42,390 --> 01:08:40,400
ufos is almost the religious support

1938
01:08:46,149 --> 01:08:42,400
of the infrastructure of technology

1939
01:08:49,189 --> 01:08:46,159
that's how i saw it so to me to me

1940
01:08:51,269 --> 01:08:49,199
jacques was like a walking

1941
01:08:53,829 --> 01:08:51,279
heideggerian essay

1942
01:08:55,990 --> 01:08:53,839
to me that's what he seemed to me to be

1943
01:08:58,789 --> 01:08:56,000
and so i couldn't stop like thinking

1944
01:09:01,030 --> 01:08:58,799
that and so i read everything and this

1945
01:09:03,990 --> 01:09:01,040
is before he put all of his stuff on

1946
01:09:05,829 --> 01:09:04,000
academia edu so before that i went to

1947
01:09:08,470 --> 01:09:05,839
you know i searched everything out on

1948
01:09:10,229 --> 01:09:08,480
microfiche you know in the library and i

1949
01:09:12,149 --> 01:09:10,239
read all of his 1970s stuff and

1950
01:09:13,990 --> 01:09:12,159
everything and i was like wow

1951
01:09:15,829 --> 01:09:14,000
i'm right about him he is like this

1952
01:09:17,669 --> 01:09:15,839
hiding gary but he i don't even think he

1953
01:09:20,550 --> 01:09:17,679
knows who martin tyler he's never read

1954
01:09:23,829 --> 01:09:20,560
him i'm sure you know and so um

1955
01:09:25,669 --> 01:09:23,839
yeah so that's how then i i

1956
01:09:26,870 --> 01:09:25,679
understood his work

1957
01:09:30,630 --> 01:09:26,880
and

1958
01:09:33,110 --> 01:09:30,640
technological

1959
01:09:34,870 --> 01:09:33,120
work that he did away from the ufo

1960
01:09:39,669 --> 01:09:34,880
studies that he did to me they went hand

1961
01:09:44,390 --> 01:09:42,229
okay so what i was going to ask

1962
01:09:46,309 --> 01:09:44,400
is is there

1963
01:09:48,070 --> 01:09:46,319
a higher percentage of people who are

1964
01:09:51,030 --> 01:09:48,080
catholic who study the phenomenon more

1965
01:09:53,030 --> 01:09:51,040
than the general population let's say

1966
01:09:54,950 --> 01:09:53,040
have you found that

1967
01:09:58,149 --> 01:09:54,960
okay so i found that um because i was at

1968
01:10:01,830 --> 01:09:58,159
the vatican and i spent time at the

1969
01:10:02,709 --> 01:10:01,840
observatory there in castle gandolfo

1970
01:10:05,270 --> 01:10:02,719
um

1971
01:10:08,950 --> 01:10:05,280
i know brother guy console mono who is

1972
01:10:10,950 --> 01:10:08,960
the observatory he's the jesuit monk

1973
01:10:12,630 --> 01:10:10,960
who's the head of the observatory he's

1974
01:10:14,310 --> 01:10:12,640
an astronomer

1975
01:10:16,390 --> 01:10:14,320
and they have a meteorite collection

1976
01:10:19,110 --> 01:10:16,400
there and stuff it's pretty cool

1977
01:10:21,270 --> 01:10:19,120
so i got to stay there and i've known

1978
01:10:22,550 --> 01:10:21,280
him now for i don't know a lot of a lot

1979
01:10:24,310 --> 01:10:22,560
of years i guess

1980
01:10:26,229 --> 01:10:24,320
um

1981
01:10:27,590 --> 01:10:26,239
and i also talked to lots of people at

1982
01:10:31,189 --> 01:10:27,600
the vatican

1983
01:10:35,590 --> 01:10:31,199
like peter gompel he's a uh

1984
01:10:38,149 --> 01:10:35,600
he's he's in his 90s and he is um

1985
01:10:40,790 --> 01:10:38,159
he was like a people advisor

1986
01:10:42,790 --> 01:10:40,800
and so this is what i can say about

1987
01:10:45,270 --> 01:10:42,800
catholicism and

1988
01:10:47,270 --> 01:10:45,280
the subject of ufos is that

1989
01:10:49,030 --> 01:10:47,280
the people that i've talked to are very

1990
01:10:52,229 --> 01:10:49,040
open-minded about it

1991
01:10:54,870 --> 01:10:52,239
and just as curious as as you and i are

1992
01:10:56,790 --> 01:10:54,880
and some believe and some don't believe

1993
01:10:59,669 --> 01:10:56,800
so there's no right at this point

1994
01:11:00,950 --> 01:10:59,679
there's no definite kind of dogma or

1995
01:11:01,830 --> 01:11:00,960
doctrine

1996
01:11:02,709 --> 01:11:01,840
um

1997
01:11:06,390 --> 01:11:02,719
about

1998
01:11:07,590 --> 01:11:06,400
ufos for the vatican right so um okay so

1999
01:11:11,270 --> 01:11:07,600
that said

2000
01:11:13,750 --> 01:11:11,280
there when i did get into this this um

2001
01:11:16,630 --> 01:11:13,760
research some very odd things happen to

2002
01:11:18,390 --> 01:11:16,640
me that

2003
01:11:19,590 --> 01:11:18,400
never would have happened to me had i

2004
01:11:21,990 --> 01:11:19,600
stayed in

2005
01:11:24,870 --> 01:11:22,000
the study of normal catholic history and

2006
01:11:26,950 --> 01:11:24,880
stuff like that like so i um i was uh

2007
01:11:29,189 --> 01:11:26,960
you know people in my book a lot of them

2008
01:11:31,510 --> 01:11:29,199
i i became involved with the invisible

2009
01:11:33,030 --> 01:11:31,520
college do you know the people that okay

2010
01:11:35,510 --> 01:11:33,040
so i became involved with the invisible

2011
01:11:38,070 --> 01:11:35,520
college and

2012
01:11:39,990 --> 01:11:38,080
after about a year and a half

2013
01:11:41,270 --> 01:11:40,000
i recognized that every single one of

2014
01:11:43,669 --> 01:11:41,280
them

2015
01:11:44,390 --> 01:11:43,679
either was a practicing catholic or had

2016
01:11:45,830 --> 01:11:44,400
been

2017
01:11:47,910 --> 01:11:45,840
you know had come from a catholic

2018
01:11:49,990 --> 01:11:47,920
background and and the ones that were

2019
01:11:52,229 --> 01:11:50,000
the most intense into the research were

2020
01:11:54,470 --> 01:11:52,239
actually practicing catholics

2021
01:11:56,229 --> 01:11:54,480
and um

2022
01:11:58,709 --> 01:11:56,239
i don't understand that actually so i'm

2023
01:12:00,790 --> 01:11:58,719
not quite sure why that is the case

2024
01:12:02,229 --> 01:12:00,800
but that's the case

2025
01:12:04,870 --> 01:12:02,239
do you have any speculation as to why

2026
01:12:07,510 --> 01:12:04,880
that may be the case

2027
01:12:09,030 --> 01:12:07,520
like ideas you're toying with

2028
01:12:11,590 --> 01:12:09,040
i mean it makes it's gonna make it's

2029
01:12:14,149 --> 01:12:11,600
gonna sound very crazy and i'm just if i

2030
01:12:16,310 --> 01:12:14,159
tell you okay i will tell you what my my

2031
01:12:16,950 --> 01:12:16,320
speculation is but there's no proof for

2032
01:12:22,630 --> 01:12:16,960
it

2033
01:12:25,669 --> 01:12:22,640
and kind of you know weighing down okay

2034
01:12:27,990 --> 01:12:25,679
so basically i think that um well every

2035
01:12:28,790 --> 01:12:28,000
single one of them has a clearance

2036
01:12:30,630 --> 01:12:28,800
um

2037
01:12:31,830 --> 01:12:30,640
most of them were involved in some way

2038
01:12:34,790 --> 01:12:31,840
with the

2039
01:12:37,590 --> 01:12:34,800
information about ufos and the public

2040
01:12:39,990 --> 01:12:37,600
and we know about project blue book and

2041
01:12:42,070 --> 01:12:40,000
we know that in with project blue book

2042
01:12:43,910 --> 01:12:42,080
there was a disinformation campaign

2043
01:12:45,910 --> 01:12:43,920
right and we know some of the people

2044
01:12:49,350 --> 01:12:45,920
that were supposed to do that

2045
01:12:50,550 --> 01:12:49,360
um it could be that people feel guilty

2046
01:12:52,310 --> 01:12:50,560
i'm not sure

2047
01:12:54,149 --> 01:12:52,320
and so they go back to the religion of

2048
01:12:56,870 --> 01:12:54,159
their youth in order to you know because

2049
01:12:59,669 --> 01:12:56,880
it's pretty intense studying ufos

2050
01:13:01,510 --> 01:12:59,679
and then maybe just you know make maybe

2051
01:13:03,990 --> 01:13:01,520
engaged in disinformation and things

2052
01:13:05,830 --> 01:13:04,000
like that i mean this is pretty heavy

2053
01:13:07,830 --> 01:13:05,840
and um

2054
01:13:09,590 --> 01:13:07,840
i didn't mean to find stuff out like

2055
01:13:12,390 --> 01:13:09,600
that you know about

2056
01:13:15,189 --> 01:13:12,400
the ufo phenomena i just kind of

2057
01:13:17,110 --> 01:13:15,199
happened upon it and

2058
01:13:18,709 --> 01:13:17,120
that the work that i do is historical

2059
01:13:22,550 --> 01:13:18,719
work mainly so i've done a lot of

2060
01:13:24,310 --> 01:13:22,560
history in the campaigns and the stuff

2061
01:13:26,470 --> 01:13:24,320
like that so

2062
01:13:29,750 --> 01:13:26,480
yeah so perhaps

2063
01:13:32,229 --> 01:13:29,760
that's the reason i'm not quite sure

2064
01:13:35,189 --> 01:13:32,239
does the vatican acknowledge or see any

2065
01:13:36,950 --> 01:13:35,199
similarities between angelic encounters

2066
01:13:39,189 --> 01:13:36,960
and alien encounters

2067
01:13:41,270 --> 01:13:39,199
yes some people do yeah some people do

2068
01:13:43,669 --> 01:13:41,280
definitely i mean one of the uh former

2069
01:13:47,270 --> 01:13:43,679
directors of the observatory

2070
01:13:49,189 --> 01:13:47,280
uh definitely believed in um et's and

2071
01:13:50,149 --> 01:13:49,199
believed that et's

2072
01:13:52,950 --> 01:13:50,159
were

2073
01:13:55,270 --> 01:13:52,960
another kind of subset of god's creation

2074
01:13:57,669 --> 01:13:55,280
okay so that's another thing is that

2075
01:13:59,030 --> 01:13:57,679
a lot of people think like atheists or

2076
01:14:00,390 --> 01:13:59,040
people that i talk to like you know

2077
01:14:03,750 --> 01:14:00,400
people in congress or something like

2078
01:14:05,590 --> 01:14:03,760
that they're like if we do if people

2079
01:14:08,470 --> 01:14:05,600
find out that ufos are real or something

2080
01:14:10,390 --> 01:14:08,480
it's gonna really you know

2081
01:14:11,830 --> 01:14:10,400
you know the religions are gonna crash

2082
01:14:13,110 --> 01:14:11,840
they're gonna implode and people are

2083
01:14:15,270 --> 01:14:13,120
gonna not believe in their religions

2084
01:14:17,110 --> 01:14:15,280
well that's not true at all because

2085
01:14:20,630 --> 01:14:17,120
people already who are religious have

2086
01:14:22,310 --> 01:14:20,640
categories for anomalous phenomena and

2087
01:14:24,470 --> 01:14:22,320
anomalous beings and non-human

2088
01:14:27,270 --> 01:14:24,480
intelligence so they already have these

2089
01:14:29,270 --> 01:14:27,280
categories in place that say atheists

2090
01:14:31,910 --> 01:14:29,280
don't have or some atheists just don't

2091
01:14:33,830 --> 01:14:31,920
have and so i think that that people who

2092
01:14:34,790 --> 01:14:33,840
are religious are going to be actually

2093
01:14:36,390 --> 01:14:34,800
very

2094
01:14:37,590 --> 01:14:36,400
in fact i think they already are they're

2095
01:14:39,830 --> 01:14:37,600
completely

2096
01:14:40,870 --> 01:14:39,840
okay with the idea that there are

2097
01:14:42,390 --> 01:14:40,880
perhaps

2098
01:14:45,189 --> 01:14:42,400
et's

2099
01:14:46,790 --> 01:14:45,199
um or non-human entities non-human

2100
01:14:48,470 --> 01:14:46,800
intelligent entities

2101
01:14:49,830 --> 01:14:48,480
because they already believe it

2102
01:14:51,350 --> 01:14:49,840
you know

2103
01:14:52,790 --> 01:14:51,360
in terms of the vatican or in terms of

2104
01:14:54,950 --> 01:14:52,800
some of the other religious people that

2105
01:14:57,510 --> 01:14:54,960
that you've encountered who sorry that

2106
01:15:00,310 --> 01:14:57,520
you have yes encountered that have that

2107
01:15:02,550 --> 01:15:00,320
are devoted do they see aliens to be a

2108
01:15:04,790 --> 01:15:02,560
modern interpretation of the

2109
01:15:07,110 --> 01:15:04,800
of some ancient of what we placed into

2110
01:15:09,510 --> 01:15:07,120
religious stories or do they see that

2111
01:15:11,189 --> 01:15:09,520
aliens are now the interpretation of

2112
01:15:12,229 --> 01:15:11,199
what was there before

2113
01:15:13,750 --> 01:15:12,239
so

2114
01:15:15,350 --> 01:15:13,760
hopefully you understand what i'm saying

2115
01:15:17,189 --> 01:15:15,360
are the aliens primary and the angel

2116
01:15:19,350 --> 01:15:17,199
secondary like the false interpretation

2117
01:15:20,790 --> 01:15:19,360
or is it the angels are being

2118
01:15:23,030 --> 01:15:20,800
interpreted from our materialistic

2119
01:15:24,870 --> 01:15:23,040
culture as aliens yeah or demons yeah

2120
01:15:25,669 --> 01:15:24,880
yeah i think that's a good way to put it

2121
01:15:28,149 --> 01:15:25,679
um

2122
01:15:29,830 --> 01:15:28,159
and i have a friend uh jeff kreipel he's

2123
01:15:32,229 --> 01:15:29,840
at rice university and he talks about

2124
01:15:34,070 --> 01:15:32,239
this actually i forgot he has a word for

2125
01:15:36,870 --> 01:15:34,080
it but i forgot what it was um but

2126
01:15:40,149 --> 01:15:36,880
basically he says that you know we tend

2127
01:15:42,630 --> 01:15:40,159
to think that the people of the past mis

2128
01:15:44,470 --> 01:15:42,640
interpreted these kinds of things and

2129
01:15:45,990 --> 01:15:44,480
they called them angels and demons when

2130
01:15:48,790 --> 01:15:46,000
actually they're ufos right they're

2131
01:15:50,709 --> 01:15:48,800
unidentified you know advanced aircraft

2132
01:15:52,390 --> 01:15:50,719
kind of things and that we have a much

2133
01:15:54,310 --> 01:15:52,400
more accurate interpretation he says

2134
01:15:55,270 --> 01:15:54,320
that's baloney you know

2135
01:15:57,510 --> 01:15:55,280
you know because they're both

2136
01:15:59,910 --> 01:15:57,520
interpretations and they're both based

2137
01:16:02,229 --> 01:15:59,920
on what we know right now

2138
01:16:04,709 --> 01:16:02,239
you know and so

2139
01:16:06,709 --> 01:16:04,719
who's to say you know people 100 years

2140
01:16:08,790 --> 01:16:06,719
from now are gonna look back on us and

2141
01:16:11,270 --> 01:16:08,800
say ha ha look what they believed that

2142
01:16:12,870 --> 01:16:11,280
was really funny you know and so that's

2143
01:16:15,430 --> 01:16:12,880
what i think we have to do is we have to

2144
01:16:17,430 --> 01:16:15,440
get back to the heideggerian impulse of

2145
01:16:18,790 --> 01:16:17,440
basically the socrates impulse of

2146
01:16:21,590 --> 01:16:18,800
basically saying

2147
01:16:23,430 --> 01:16:21,600
what like what's going on you know and

2148
01:16:25,510 --> 01:16:23,440
maybe

2149
01:16:27,910 --> 01:16:25,520
try to not conclude

2150
01:16:30,310 --> 01:16:27,920
and just kind of observe and i think

2151
01:16:32,630 --> 01:16:30,320
that we'll get information if we do that

2152
01:16:34,390 --> 01:16:32,640
that's what i think we should do

2153
01:16:36,310 --> 01:16:34,400
instead of calling it something why

2154
01:16:38,149 --> 01:16:36,320
don't we just observe it and note

2155
01:16:43,110 --> 01:16:38,159
patterns

2156
01:16:44,709 --> 01:16:43,120
fatima right so you know about the 1917

2157
01:16:46,550 --> 01:16:44,719
miracle the sun

2158
01:16:48,229 --> 01:16:46,560
fatima oh oh that

2159
01:16:51,030 --> 01:16:48,239
yeah this is a vatican kind of virgin

2160
01:16:52,310 --> 01:16:51,040
mary apparition thing okay oh no then i

2161
01:16:53,830 --> 01:16:52,320
don't know it it's not the sun that

2162
01:16:55,270 --> 01:16:53,840
moved in the sky this is different no it

2163
01:16:57,990 --> 01:16:55,280
is it's the it's called the miracle of

2164
01:17:00,470 --> 01:16:58,000
the sun but it was it was supposed to be

2165
01:17:03,669 --> 01:17:00,480
um from the virgin mary it was based on

2166
01:17:05,910 --> 01:17:03,679
an apparition of the virgin mary so um

2167
01:17:06,790 --> 01:17:05,920
if you look at some of those documents

2168
01:17:10,149 --> 01:17:06,800
uh

2169
01:17:12,550 --> 01:17:10,159
and again the primary sources were it

2170
01:17:15,030 --> 01:17:12,560
wasn't it's don't attribute it to me or

2171
01:17:16,630 --> 01:17:15,040
jacques ballet or even jeff kreipel

2172
01:17:19,110 --> 01:17:16,640
because there were two

2173
01:17:19,990 --> 01:17:19,120
people who did this research this um and

2174
01:17:23,910 --> 01:17:20,000
i

2175
01:17:26,070 --> 01:17:23,920
curt please let me because these people

2176
01:17:29,189 --> 01:17:26,080
deserve the credit you know uh okay i

2177
01:17:30,790 --> 01:17:29,199
will i'll make a note so send in

2178
01:17:32,630 --> 01:17:30,800
yeah they did some great research on the

2179
01:17:34,550 --> 01:17:32,640
primary sources and what they found were

2180
01:17:36,310 --> 01:17:34,560
that there were a lot of things that

2181
01:17:38,390 --> 01:17:36,320
looked very

2182
01:17:41,669 --> 01:17:38,400
you know what we would call ufos because

2183
01:17:44,470 --> 01:17:41,679
there was a man who had been um with i

2184
01:17:48,229 --> 01:17:44,480
think there was 70 000 people there um

2185
01:17:50,870 --> 01:17:48,239
in fatima and he was a doctor and an

2186
01:17:52,070 --> 01:17:50,880
atheist and he looked up and what he saw

2187
01:17:54,550 --> 01:17:52,080
was something that looked like a

2188
01:17:56,870 --> 01:17:54,560
pearlized disc that was spinning around

2189
01:17:58,390 --> 01:17:56,880
and around and around you know so you

2190
01:17:59,590 --> 01:17:58,400
know if we could just get these kinds of

2191
01:18:02,070 --> 01:17:59,600
descriptions

2192
01:18:04,149 --> 01:18:02,080
and put them all together i think that

2193
01:18:05,910 --> 01:18:04,159
we would get and without any kind of

2194
01:18:07,510 --> 01:18:05,920
dogma associated with it like you know

2195
01:18:09,430 --> 01:18:07,520
oh it has to be this or it has to be

2196
01:18:11,030 --> 01:18:09,440
that because there will be a lot of that

2197
01:18:12,790 --> 01:18:11,040
people will be upset

2198
01:18:15,510 --> 01:18:12,800
um and i don't know why people are so

2199
01:18:17,270 --> 01:18:15,520
upset about this um when i first did my

2200
01:18:19,750 --> 01:18:17,280
research by the way i would get a lot of

2201
01:18:22,790 --> 01:18:19,760
emails from people in fact i had to

2202
01:18:25,189 --> 01:18:22,800
report it to my university in 2018 i was

2203
01:18:28,149 --> 01:18:25,199
just getting hammered by pretty weird

2204
01:18:29,990 --> 01:18:28,159
emails and so you know i just couldn't

2205
01:18:32,630 --> 01:18:30,000
do my work so i had

2206
01:18:34,390 --> 01:18:32,640
you know i i had to report it to we have

2207
01:18:37,669 --> 01:18:34,400
we have police at the university we have

2208
01:18:40,790 --> 01:18:37,679
tech experts like i.t people and so i

2209
01:18:44,229 --> 01:18:40,800
reported that and i remember um this is

2210
01:18:46,149 --> 01:18:44,239
in 2018 chris padgett was our chief of

2211
01:18:48,229 --> 01:18:46,159
police on the university campus at the

2212
01:18:51,830 --> 01:18:48,239
time and he looked at the emails and he

2213
01:18:53,990 --> 01:18:51,840
said this looks like religious extremism

2214
01:18:57,030 --> 01:18:54,000
and i said yeah that's what it looks

2215
01:18:59,189 --> 01:18:57,040
like religious extremism so someone who

2216
01:19:01,590 --> 01:18:59,199
does who's has nothing to do with what i

2217
01:19:04,070 --> 01:19:01,600
studied even identified it as looking

2218
01:19:05,669 --> 01:19:04,080
like that so if you just say if you say

2219
01:19:07,669 --> 01:19:05,679
what i just said why don't we just

2220
01:19:09,430 --> 01:19:07,679
observe the patterns there will be a lot

2221
01:19:11,030 --> 01:19:09,440
of pushback to that for some reason

2222
01:19:13,990 --> 01:19:11,040
people would just be really upset about

2223
01:19:16,470 --> 01:19:14,000
it that i don't have either a catholic

2224
01:19:18,630 --> 01:19:16,480
framework or a religious framework or if

2225
01:19:20,070 --> 01:19:18,640
i don't have the you know what's going

2226
01:19:21,830 --> 01:19:20,080
right now is

2227
01:19:24,310 --> 01:19:21,840
the us government's

2228
01:19:25,990 --> 01:19:24,320
these are advanced technology framework

2229
01:19:27,910 --> 01:19:26,000
like you have to have that framework now

2230
01:19:30,310 --> 01:19:27,920
or else you're going to have pushback

2231
01:19:32,310 --> 01:19:30,320
why can't we just look at it and just

2232
01:19:34,070 --> 01:19:32,320
identify what we know about it using

2233
01:19:35,910 --> 01:19:34,080
science and

2234
01:19:37,270 --> 01:19:35,920
religious studies and sociology and all

2235
01:19:39,510 --> 01:19:37,280
the things that we have all the tools

2236
01:19:41,189 --> 01:19:39,520
that we have that's my suggestion just

2237
01:19:42,630 --> 01:19:41,199
look it look at it

2238
01:19:44,229 --> 01:19:42,640
have you found any connection between

2239
01:19:45,350 --> 01:19:44,239
near-death experiences and the

2240
01:19:47,189 --> 01:19:45,360
phenomenon

2241
01:19:49,030 --> 01:19:47,199
or any other part of your studies and

2242
01:19:50,630 --> 01:19:49,040
near-death experiences

2243
01:19:52,550 --> 01:19:50,640
at some point in the summer plan on

2244
01:19:53,669 --> 01:19:52,560
taking a deep dive into them but was

2245
01:19:55,750 --> 01:19:53,679
starting with dean raiden if you've

2246
01:19:59,510 --> 01:19:55,760
heard of him but i haven't done so yet

2247
01:20:02,390 --> 01:19:59,520
so i'm curious yes i know dean um

2248
01:20:04,870 --> 01:20:02,400
so yes i have actually um what's really

2249
01:20:08,310 --> 01:20:04,880
interesting right now is that i'm um

2250
01:20:10,149 --> 01:20:08,320
doing some research into japanese ufos

2251
01:20:12,149 --> 01:20:10,159
and um what i think is really

2252
01:20:14,870 --> 01:20:12,159
interesting is that they're different

2253
01:20:17,110 --> 01:20:14,880
i would call them like different ufos

2254
01:20:19,590 --> 01:20:17,120
there's our you know the us military's

2255
01:20:22,149 --> 01:20:19,600
ufo right which is you know these things

2256
01:20:24,070 --> 01:20:22,159
that like lou elizondo talks about that

2257
01:20:25,510 --> 01:20:24,080
kind of thing well that looks a little

2258
01:20:27,510 --> 01:20:25,520
bit different than the ufos that the

2259
01:20:29,830 --> 01:20:27,520
japanese talk about okay

2260
01:20:33,270 --> 01:20:29,840
and then you know so so near death

2261
01:20:34,709 --> 01:20:33,280
experiences what i found is this is that

2262
01:20:37,189 --> 01:20:34,719
strangely

2263
01:20:39,510 --> 01:20:37,199
people who've had near-death experiences

2264
01:20:40,550 --> 01:20:39,520
seem to have a lot of these post-ufo

2265
01:20:43,189 --> 01:20:40,560
effects

2266
01:20:44,790 --> 01:20:43,199
that people who see ufos have

2267
01:20:47,030 --> 01:20:44,800
which is i don't know if you and again i

2268
01:20:49,270 --> 01:20:47,040
hate to do this but i'm going to uh the

2269
01:20:51,990 --> 01:20:49,280
movie arrival i don't like to cite a

2270
01:20:53,830 --> 01:20:52,000
movie as as a as a framework for like

2271
01:20:56,470 --> 01:20:53,840
you know talking about something but in

2272
01:21:00,229 --> 01:20:56,480
this movie arrival um one of the gifts

2273
01:21:02,229 --> 01:21:00,239
that the aliens give to humans is the

2274
01:21:03,669 --> 01:21:02,239
the knowledge of time like you know that

2275
01:21:05,510 --> 01:21:03,679
time is actually you know they had four

2276
01:21:08,550 --> 01:21:05,520
knowledge and you know time is not

2277
01:21:09,990 --> 01:21:08,560
linear so you can know things and so a

2278
01:21:13,669 --> 01:21:10,000
lot of people who have near death

2279
01:21:15,430 --> 01:21:13,679
experiences and you have had

2280
01:21:17,189 --> 01:21:15,440
experiences of a ufo

2281
01:21:18,630 --> 01:21:17,199
all of a sudden seem to know things that

2282
01:21:21,350 --> 01:21:18,640
are going to happen

2283
01:21:23,510 --> 01:21:21,360
so not all of them but a lot of them

2284
01:21:24,870 --> 01:21:23,520
and uh so this is something that i found

2285
01:21:27,030 --> 01:21:24,880
i also found that a lot of people who've

2286
01:21:29,830 --> 01:21:27,040
had ufo experiences

2287
01:21:32,630 --> 01:21:29,840
seem to associate those ufo experiences

2288
01:21:34,550 --> 01:21:32,640
with um where people died so i know an

2289
01:21:37,030 --> 01:21:34,560
experiencer he's a very well-known

2290
01:21:40,470 --> 01:21:37,040
experiencer and he said that he saw a

2291
01:21:43,910 --> 01:21:40,480
ufo where his wife had died of a car

2292
01:21:45,510 --> 01:21:43,920
accident years earlier

2293
01:21:47,830 --> 01:21:45,520
now in japan

2294
01:21:49,750 --> 01:21:47,840
these orbs that you know here in the

2295
01:21:51,750 --> 01:21:49,760
united states we call them ufos but they

2296
01:21:54,709 --> 01:21:51,760
see them in japan

2297
01:21:56,950 --> 01:21:54,719
they're they're identified as souls like

2298
01:21:59,750 --> 01:21:56,960
souls that of debt deceased people like

2299
01:22:01,910 --> 01:21:59,760
during the tsunami of 2011 there were so

2300
01:22:04,070 --> 01:22:01,920
many of these and people saw them and

2301
01:22:06,550 --> 01:22:04,080
they said these are the souls right of

2302
01:22:07,830 --> 01:22:06,560
the people who died during the tsunami

2303
01:22:09,030 --> 01:22:07,840
and so i i think that's really

2304
01:22:10,790 --> 01:22:09,040
interesting so yeah there's some

2305
01:22:12,629 --> 01:22:10,800
correlations there

2306
01:22:14,149 --> 01:22:12,639
in japan were they referring to the orbs

2307
01:22:16,149 --> 01:22:14,159
or were they referring to the craft when

2308
01:22:18,629 --> 01:22:16,159
they said the souls

2309
01:22:21,350 --> 01:22:18,639
the orbs

2310
01:22:22,950 --> 01:22:21,360
okay you mentioned one time that

2311
01:22:25,669 --> 01:22:22,960
vale told you about how these alphabet

2312
01:22:27,990 --> 01:22:25,679
agencies work and that you were able to

2313
01:22:29,350 --> 01:22:28,000
see how they work up close and personal

2314
01:22:31,030 --> 01:22:29,360
i think in terms of the strategies that

2315
01:22:32,550 --> 01:22:31,040
they use though i wasn't sure exactly

2316
01:22:34,390 --> 01:22:32,560
what you meant by the strategies like

2317
01:22:36,470 --> 01:22:34,400
you mean the disinformation strategies

2318
01:22:37,990 --> 01:22:36,480
like what are you refer the collection

2319
01:22:41,270 --> 01:22:38,000
of

2320
01:22:43,189 --> 01:22:41,280
i wasn't sure what you meant so do you

2321
01:22:45,350 --> 01:22:43,199
mind expounding on that yeah some of the

2322
01:22:47,910 --> 01:22:45,360
strategies that they use would be there

2323
01:22:50,070 --> 01:22:47,920
were two specific ways in which they

2324
01:22:52,149 --> 01:22:50,080
spread disinformation at least when

2325
01:22:53,830 --> 01:22:52,159
project blue book was going on and i

2326
01:22:56,310 --> 01:22:53,840
believe they probably still do this and

2327
01:22:59,110 --> 01:22:56,320
i think probably yeah this is this is

2328
01:23:02,390 --> 01:22:59,120
what i've experienced up close um

2329
01:23:03,990 --> 01:23:02,400
they cultivate two types of people as

2330
01:23:05,189 --> 01:23:04,000
assets and when i say assets those

2331
01:23:06,629 --> 01:23:05,199
people sometimes don't even know that

2332
01:23:08,550 --> 01:23:06,639
they're being cultivated in fact they

2333
01:23:10,709 --> 01:23:08,560
don't know um and that's why they're

2334
01:23:13,830 --> 01:23:10,719
assets is because they're an asset to be

2335
01:23:16,229 --> 01:23:13,840
they're you being used right uh to

2336
01:23:18,950 --> 01:23:16,239
propagate misinformation one of those

2337
01:23:21,590 --> 01:23:18,960
persons is like the benefits you know

2338
01:23:22,950 --> 01:23:21,600
have you heard of uh paul benefits

2339
01:23:25,990 --> 01:23:22,960
who i've heard

2340
01:23:27,110 --> 01:23:26,000
yeah so this was a a person who was not

2341
01:23:28,149 --> 01:23:27,120
mentally

2342
01:23:30,390 --> 01:23:28,159
stable

2343
01:23:33,110 --> 01:23:30,400
and but was near an air force base and

2344
01:23:35,750 --> 01:23:33,120
believed in ufos and um

2345
01:23:38,550 --> 01:23:35,760
rick dodi richard doty who worked for

2346
01:23:39,270 --> 01:23:38,560
the air force as a special agent

2347
01:23:42,550 --> 01:23:39,280
he

2348
01:23:44,629 --> 01:23:42,560
benefits

2349
01:23:46,470 --> 01:23:44,639
and put stuff on his computer to make

2350
01:23:49,830 --> 01:23:46,480
him think that

2351
01:23:52,790 --> 01:23:49,840
a ufo invasion was imminent okay and

2352
01:23:55,189 --> 01:23:52,800
then of course benefits then looks crazy

2353
01:23:57,669 --> 01:23:55,199
right or crazier so you know vulnerable

2354
01:24:00,629 --> 01:23:57,679
people like that they're targeted and

2355
01:24:02,950 --> 01:24:00,639
they're used to kind of create a stigma

2356
01:24:04,550 --> 01:24:02,960
associated with ufos if crazy people

2357
01:24:06,470 --> 01:24:04,560
believe in ufos i don't want to believe

2358
01:24:09,590 --> 01:24:06,480
in them you see what i'm saying so that

2359
01:24:12,070 --> 01:24:09,600
happened and then also um linda molten

2360
01:24:14,550 --> 01:24:12,080
howe they went for people like her who

2361
01:24:17,350 --> 01:24:14,560
was a legitimate journalist right she

2362
01:24:18,950 --> 01:24:17,360
had some credentials from stanford and

2363
01:24:20,950 --> 01:24:18,960
they target her and they give her

2364
01:24:22,709 --> 01:24:20,960
misinformation and they bring her on

2365
01:24:24,390 --> 01:24:22,719
base or something like that and they say

2366
01:24:27,189 --> 01:24:24,400
look this is going to come out so those

2367
01:24:29,990 --> 01:24:27,199
are two ways that you get cultivated as

2368
01:24:32,390 --> 01:24:30,000
an asset um you're not an asset to

2369
01:24:34,390 --> 01:24:32,400
yourself or your life or your family but

2370
01:24:36,709 --> 01:24:34,400
you're their asset now where they're you

2371
01:24:38,390 --> 01:24:36,719
know cultivating you so um there was a

2372
01:24:40,550 --> 01:24:38,400
point in my research where i basically

2373
01:24:43,030 --> 01:24:40,560
severed all ties with anybody in the

2374
01:24:47,030 --> 01:24:43,040
invisible college except for

2375
01:24:49,030 --> 01:24:47,040
jacques who i do trust and gary okay and

2376
01:24:51,750 --> 01:24:49,040
gary by the way is not technically in

2377
01:24:54,229 --> 01:24:51,760
the invisible college um

2378
01:24:57,110 --> 01:24:54,239
he's an invisible one

2379
01:24:59,110 --> 01:24:57,120
he's a visible one right but um but yeah

2380
01:25:00,550 --> 01:24:59,120
so i just didn't want that in my life at

2381
01:25:03,350 --> 01:25:00,560
all because you know i wanted to do

2382
01:25:05,110 --> 01:25:03,360
straight up research i didn't want to to

2383
01:25:08,149 --> 01:25:05,120
you know because my research could

2384
01:25:10,390 --> 01:25:08,159
easily be used to

2385
01:25:12,950 --> 01:25:10,400
further some agenda because i'm doing

2386
01:25:15,110 --> 01:25:12,960
historical research that's showing that

2387
01:25:17,270 --> 01:25:15,120
these things are that these very strange

2388
01:25:19,030 --> 01:25:17,280
aerial phenomena have been around if i

2389
01:25:21,110 --> 01:25:19,040
didn't do that research i didn't know

2390
01:25:23,430 --> 01:25:21,120
this i would assume that there's some

2391
01:25:25,030 --> 01:25:23,440
kind of a program like a weapons program

2392
01:25:26,790 --> 01:25:25,040
going on that's what i would think was

2393
01:25:28,470 --> 01:25:26,800
was happening at this point now there

2394
01:25:30,310 --> 01:25:28,480
might be a weapons program going on in

2395
01:25:33,350 --> 01:25:30,320
which case my research would be valuable

2396
01:25:35,990 --> 01:25:33,360
to them so how do i do my research and

2397
01:25:38,070 --> 01:25:36,000
and you know stop from being cultivated

2398
01:25:41,510 --> 01:25:38,080
so i guess at some point i recognize

2399
01:25:43,110 --> 01:25:41,520
that that that's a real thing and um

2400
01:25:45,189 --> 01:25:43,120
i mean it kind of recognized it already

2401
01:25:46,950 --> 01:25:45,199
because i wasn't sure what was going on

2402
01:25:49,270 --> 01:25:46,960
in american cosmic at the beginning but

2403
01:25:52,070 --> 01:25:49,280
i'm a researcher she's honest and i said

2404
01:25:54,390 --> 01:25:52,080
that in almost every chapter with tyler

2405
01:25:56,629 --> 01:25:54,400
i basically said you know james and i

2406
01:25:58,149 --> 01:25:56,639
and james is gary i'd say we weren't

2407
01:26:00,629 --> 01:25:58,159
quite sure if we were being set up for

2408
01:26:02,390 --> 01:26:00,639
misinformation or not but subsequently

2409
01:26:04,629 --> 01:26:02,400
james actually went you know gary went

2410
01:26:06,470 --> 01:26:04,639
along and you know checked out the the

2411
01:26:08,629 --> 01:26:06,480
debris and found that it was very

2412
01:26:15,590 --> 01:26:08,639
strange and so you know something's

2413
01:26:20,310 --> 01:26:18,149
yeah he comes up a lot um

2414
01:26:22,229 --> 01:26:20,320
i'm not super familiar with a lot of his

2415
01:26:24,629 --> 01:26:22,239
work but i have colleagues who are in

2416
01:26:27,669 --> 01:26:24,639
the space program who um who read his

2417
01:26:29,750 --> 01:26:27,679
work and like it and um yeah so but i'm

2418
01:26:32,390 --> 01:26:29,760
i'm not a person who

2419
01:26:33,750 --> 01:26:32,400
knows it enough to authoritatively say

2420
01:26:35,590 --> 01:26:33,760
something about it

2421
01:26:37,110 --> 01:26:35,600
same i'm going to be speaking with him

2422
01:26:39,590 --> 01:26:37,120
soon but i haven't had a chance to look

2423
01:26:42,229 --> 01:26:39,600
into his research on the interview that

2424
01:26:43,590 --> 01:26:42,239
you did with the that ufo podcast you

2425
01:26:45,590 --> 01:26:43,600
mentioned that you uncovered something

2426
01:26:46,870 --> 01:26:45,600
that you weren't supposed to and you

2427
01:26:47,590 --> 01:26:46,880
don't have to mention exactly what that

2428
01:26:49,510 --> 01:26:47,600
is

2429
01:26:50,790 --> 01:26:49,520
but frankly i'm concerned about that as

2430
01:26:52,310 --> 01:26:50,800
well it's one of the reasons i don't

2431
01:26:54,310 --> 01:26:52,320
like to take a look at data that's

2432
01:26:55,750 --> 01:26:54,320
classified or that i can't share even if

2433
01:26:57,990 --> 01:26:55,760
i'm extremely interested i tend to not

2434
01:26:59,270 --> 01:26:58,000
look at that in my inbox or take people

2435
01:27:00,550 --> 01:26:59,280
up on their offers if they offer it to

2436
01:27:02,149 --> 01:27:00,560
me i don't want to be in a place where i

2437
01:27:04,950 --> 01:27:02,159
have knowledge that i have to either lie

2438
01:27:06,229 --> 01:27:04,960
about or obfuscate or hide and etc

2439
01:27:07,430 --> 01:27:06,239
i want to ask what was it that you

2440
01:27:09,750 --> 01:27:07,440
uncovered but perhaps you can speak

2441
01:27:11,910 --> 01:27:09,760
around it

2442
01:27:13,590 --> 01:27:11,920
okay i'm trying to think um if this was

2443
01:27:15,110 --> 01:27:13,600
something

2444
01:27:17,510 --> 01:27:15,120
i have the exact

2445
01:27:18,790 --> 01:27:17,520
timeline the exact statement

2446
01:27:20,310 --> 01:27:18,800
yeah so let's see if i can bring it up

2447
01:27:22,310 --> 01:27:20,320
here

2448
01:27:23,510 --> 01:27:22,320
28. i'll just send you the link so that

2449
01:27:25,350 --> 01:27:23,520
you can listen to it because i can't

2450
01:27:27,910 --> 01:27:25,360
play it for you well there's a lot i

2451
01:27:30,149 --> 01:27:27,920
felt a lot more danger frankly when i

2452
01:27:32,870 --> 01:27:30,159
was when the government hadn't

2453
01:27:34,070 --> 01:27:32,880
admitted that this was happening okay

2454
01:27:36,310 --> 01:27:34,080
because

2455
01:27:39,110 --> 01:27:36,320
it was i think it there was there was

2456
01:27:40,790 --> 01:27:39,120
danger you know there was danger um

2457
01:27:42,790 --> 01:27:40,800
and

2458
01:27:44,550 --> 01:27:42,800
what if i uncovered something that

2459
01:27:47,270 --> 01:27:44,560
people didn't want uncovered which

2460
01:27:48,550 --> 01:27:47,280
apparently i think i did um

2461
01:27:50,229 --> 01:27:48,560
so he said apparently you think you did

2462
01:27:51,430 --> 01:27:50,239
but you're not sure but anyway so if if

2463
01:27:53,510 --> 01:27:51,440
you could recall what you're referring

2464
01:27:56,870 --> 01:27:53,520
to

2465
01:27:58,070 --> 01:27:56,880
yeah okay so um

2466
01:27:59,510 --> 01:27:58,080
i mean i think there were a lot of

2467
01:28:01,990 --> 01:27:59,520
things that

2468
01:28:04,470 --> 01:28:02,000
happened that

2469
01:28:08,310 --> 01:28:04,480
maybe weren't supposed to happen but did

2470
01:28:12,149 --> 01:28:09,590
you know i was

2471
01:28:18,310 --> 01:28:12,159
looking into it and had the tools to

2472
01:28:23,430 --> 01:28:21,110
i think i mean i think the fact that

2473
01:28:25,030 --> 01:28:23,440
i tried to

2474
01:28:27,030 --> 01:28:25,040
i mean

2475
01:28:30,070 --> 01:28:27,040
look it's dirty laundry for the air

2476
01:28:32,229 --> 01:28:30,080
force right looking into these programs

2477
01:28:33,510 --> 01:28:32,239
and basically you know american cosmic

2478
01:28:34,310 --> 01:28:33,520
came out

2479
01:28:35,510 --> 01:28:34,320
and

2480
01:28:37,830 --> 01:28:35,520
all of a sudden

2481
01:28:39,189 --> 01:28:37,840
people are admitting that these things

2482
01:28:42,229 --> 01:28:39,199
have happened

2483
01:28:43,510 --> 01:28:42,239
and that there were programs of study

2484
01:28:46,310 --> 01:28:43,520
and so

2485
01:28:50,310 --> 01:28:48,229
and i'm not you know i'm actually

2486
01:28:52,070 --> 01:28:50,320
legitimate researcher so i'm not

2487
01:28:53,910 --> 01:28:52,080
actually out to

2488
01:28:55,669 --> 01:28:53,920
make a bunch of money doing this or make

2489
01:28:58,149 --> 01:28:55,679
you know a movie about ufos or anything

2490
01:28:59,350 --> 01:28:58,159
like that um i i just happen to find

2491
01:29:01,910 --> 01:28:59,360
this stuff out

2492
01:29:04,070 --> 01:29:01,920
and you know that's kind of weird that's

2493
01:29:06,470 --> 01:29:04,080
a weird position for me to be in so i

2494
01:29:07,270 --> 01:29:06,480
think that that's what was going on and

2495
01:29:08,950 --> 01:29:07,280
um

2496
01:29:11,030 --> 01:29:08,960
i'm not so i think that's what i was

2497
01:29:12,870 --> 01:29:11,040
referring to i mean

2498
01:29:14,709 --> 01:29:12,880
you know they were doing stuff and no

2499
01:29:16,470 --> 01:29:14,719
one knew about it and well some people

2500
01:29:19,669 --> 01:29:16,480
knew about it but the american people

2501
01:29:22,229 --> 01:29:19,679
didn't know about it and now they do

2502
01:29:23,990 --> 01:29:22,239
because the new york times

2503
01:29:25,110 --> 01:29:24,000
from the people that you've spoken to or

2504
01:29:26,229 --> 01:29:25,120
there's what you've heard through the

2505
01:29:29,510 --> 01:29:26,239
grapevine

2506
01:29:31,750 --> 01:29:29,520
is it the case that roswell is

2507
01:29:34,310 --> 01:29:31,760
not the recovery of balloon debris that

2508
01:29:36,790 --> 01:29:34,320
it indeed is some ufo craft that is

2509
01:29:37,830 --> 01:29:36,800
either deliberately landed or

2510
01:29:40,390 --> 01:29:37,840
or

2511
01:29:42,390 --> 01:29:40,400
accidentally landed

2512
01:29:44,950 --> 01:29:42,400
okay so that's the that's the question

2513
01:29:47,270 --> 01:29:44,960
right so that's um that's the mythology

2514
01:29:49,110 --> 01:29:47,280
of prometheus this uh this idea that

2515
01:29:51,350 --> 01:29:49,120
somehow we were you know some people

2516
01:29:53,430 --> 01:29:51,360
call that site the donation site right

2517
01:29:55,430 --> 01:29:53,440
or the gifting site and that's very

2518
01:29:57,990 --> 01:29:55,440
promethean that's right along the lines

2519
01:30:01,110 --> 01:29:58,000
of this myth and so that's how i felt

2520
01:30:02,229 --> 01:30:01,120
very uncomfortable as a person who's

2521
01:30:04,149 --> 01:30:02,239
rational

2522
01:30:06,470 --> 01:30:04,159
going into basically what looked to be a

2523
01:30:08,229 --> 01:30:06,480
living mythology okay a mythology that

2524
01:30:09,910 --> 01:30:08,239
was actually people actually were living

2525
01:30:12,470 --> 01:30:09,920
and believing it okay

2526
01:30:13,669 --> 01:30:12,480
so i'm not going to take the bait and

2527
01:30:15,590 --> 01:30:13,679
say that

2528
01:30:18,310 --> 01:30:15,600
that's the fact

2529
01:30:20,149 --> 01:30:18,320
i don't know if it's the fact

2530
01:30:21,910 --> 01:30:20,159
and i know that a lot you know it used

2531
01:30:25,110 --> 01:30:21,920
to be that thinking that or just saying

2532
01:30:27,430 --> 01:30:25,120
that would would cause one to be called

2533
01:30:28,870 --> 01:30:27,440
a quack or something like that right or

2534
01:30:30,629 --> 01:30:28,880
you know conspiracy theorists or

2535
01:30:34,070 --> 01:30:30,639
something like that believe it or not

2536
01:30:35,750 --> 01:30:34,080
the culture has changed so much that now

2537
01:30:36,870 --> 01:30:35,760
if you don't believe that people think

2538
01:30:39,990 --> 01:30:36,880
you're

2539
01:30:41,350 --> 01:30:40,000
bad or wrong or something it seems so no

2540
01:30:44,070 --> 01:30:41,360
i'm not gonna i'm not gonna believe or

2541
01:30:46,470 --> 01:30:44,080
disbelieve i don't know but i was at one

2542
01:30:48,629 --> 01:30:46,480
of those places

2543
01:30:51,270 --> 01:30:48,639
what are your thoughts on ce5 so it's a

2544
01:30:53,030 --> 01:30:51,280
method of oh i know what it is

2545
01:30:55,350 --> 01:30:53,040
okay yeah yeah

2546
01:30:57,910 --> 01:30:55,360
um okay so i do know that people i know

2547
01:31:01,030 --> 01:30:57,920
people who do it and i know that um

2548
01:31:03,350 --> 01:31:01,040
people say oh i've had success with it

2549
01:31:05,189 --> 01:31:03,360
but i mean i wouldn't be doing it

2550
01:31:06,229 --> 01:31:05,199
i don't know exactly i feel the same you

2551
01:31:08,390 --> 01:31:06,239
know

2552
01:31:09,110 --> 01:31:08,400
i feel like it's playing with it's such

2553
01:31:27,189 --> 01:31:09,120
a

2554
01:31:30,390 --> 01:31:27,199
during it

2555
01:31:32,550 --> 01:31:30,400
yeah so i i have heard a lot of people

2556
01:31:36,070 --> 01:31:32,560
say that they have you know initiated

2557
01:31:37,350 --> 01:31:36,080
contact through the methods of ce5

2558
01:31:39,350 --> 01:31:37,360
um

2559
01:31:41,270 --> 01:31:39,360
i've had people ask me to do it with

2560
01:31:43,910 --> 01:31:41,280
them right and be in communities of

2561
01:31:45,910 --> 01:31:43,920
people who do it i stay away from that

2562
01:31:47,669 --> 01:31:45,920
no i'm not gonna do that now why do i

2563
01:31:49,830 --> 01:31:47,679
say that because

2564
01:31:51,110 --> 01:31:49,840
uh well for one thing

2565
01:31:52,709 --> 01:31:51,120
a lot you know

2566
01:31:54,310 --> 01:31:52,719
learning about religious traditions you

2567
01:31:56,790 --> 01:31:54,320
do learn there's a lot of things that

2568
01:31:58,390 --> 01:31:56,800
actually happen and you don't know why

2569
01:32:00,070 --> 01:31:58,400
okay and so

2570
01:32:01,430 --> 01:32:00,080
i already believe that certain things

2571
01:32:03,750 --> 01:32:01,440
can happen

2572
01:32:05,430 --> 01:32:03,760
i don't really need to have up close

2573
01:32:08,070 --> 01:32:05,440
knowledge of this and nor do i think

2574
01:32:10,390 --> 01:32:08,080
that we can predict the consequences

2575
01:32:12,310 --> 01:32:10,400
so i guess that's my point is that yeah

2576
01:32:14,390 --> 01:32:12,320
i do believe that these kinds of things

2577
01:32:16,070 --> 01:32:14,400
work but just like we had you know just

2578
01:32:17,430 --> 01:32:16,080
like we talked about with the woo

2579
01:32:18,950 --> 01:32:17,440
science you know

2580
01:32:20,950 --> 01:32:18,960
that

2581
01:32:23,430 --> 01:32:20,960
just because people are doing it and

2582
01:32:25,590 --> 01:32:23,440
getting these effects

2583
01:32:27,430 --> 01:32:25,600
doesn't mean that the story they're

2584
01:32:29,990 --> 01:32:27,440
telling themselves and each other about

2585
01:32:31,750 --> 01:32:30,000
it is true

2586
01:32:36,149 --> 01:32:31,760
so i guess that's how i feel about it is

2587
01:32:38,070 --> 01:32:36,159
we're not certain about it why do it

2588
01:32:39,830 --> 01:32:38,080
and plus i've had also another thing is

2589
01:32:42,310 --> 01:32:39,840
that i've had so many people ask me to

2590
01:32:44,709 --> 01:32:42,320
do it and they were almost like

2591
01:32:47,510 --> 01:32:44,719
they wanted me to do it so badly that i

2592
01:32:49,110 --> 01:32:47,520
thought i don't really want to do this

2593
01:32:51,669 --> 01:32:49,120
because they're asking me you know they

2594
01:32:53,669 --> 01:32:51,679
really so much want me to do it i surely

2595
01:32:54,950 --> 01:32:53,679
don't want to do it now

2596
01:32:55,990 --> 01:32:54,960
why is that the case because you feel

2597
01:32:58,310 --> 01:32:56,000
like it's peer pressure and there's

2598
01:32:59,830 --> 01:32:58,320
something wrong about it like drugs or

2599
01:33:01,430 --> 01:32:59,840
why is it the case that if they're

2600
01:33:03,110 --> 01:33:01,440
putting so much pressure on you you

2601
01:33:04,790 --> 01:33:03,120
don't want to do it

2602
01:33:07,590 --> 01:33:04,800
yeah because i feel like you know if

2603
01:33:08,790 --> 01:33:07,600
somebody's so invested in me doing it

2604
01:33:10,629 --> 01:33:08,800
that

2605
01:33:11,750 --> 01:33:10,639
either they're getting something from it

2606
01:33:13,510 --> 01:33:11,760
or

2607
01:33:15,910 --> 01:33:13,520
they're you know i really don't know i'm

2608
01:33:17,750 --> 01:33:15,920
suspicious it just sets off alarms and

2609
01:33:20,149 --> 01:33:17,760
i'm not quite sure what those alarms are

2610
01:33:21,910 --> 01:33:20,159
but no way i wouldn't do it anyway but

2611
01:33:24,070 --> 01:33:21,920
especially when people really want you

2612
01:33:25,590 --> 01:33:24,080
to do it

2613
01:33:26,870 --> 01:33:25,600
you mentioned that in some of the

2614
01:33:29,430 --> 01:33:26,880
circles that you've been in that the

2615
01:33:32,229 --> 01:33:29,440
case of bob lazar it isn't as dismissed

2616
01:33:33,830 --> 01:33:32,239
as it is in the popular culture and what

2617
01:33:35,750 --> 01:33:33,840
he says comports with

2618
01:33:37,910 --> 01:33:35,760
yeah other reports in such a way that it

2619
01:33:39,750 --> 01:33:37,920
makes much of his account true or likely

2620
01:33:41,910 --> 01:33:39,760
to be true even if certain specifics of

2621
01:33:43,990 --> 01:33:41,920
the account isn't yeah can you expound

2622
01:33:46,550 --> 01:33:44,000
on that sure so a lot of the people that

2623
01:33:49,350 --> 01:33:46,560
i talked to in the you know like who are

2624
01:33:51,590 --> 01:33:49,360
like tyler basically um believed lazar

2625
01:33:53,590 --> 01:33:51,600
okay which i thought was fascinating

2626
01:33:56,229 --> 01:33:53,600
because like he's so

2627
01:33:58,070 --> 01:33:56,239
dismissed okay for the most part

2628
01:34:00,310 --> 01:33:58,080
but they didn't dismiss him at all

2629
01:34:02,390 --> 01:34:00,320
and so i thought that's fascinating um

2630
01:34:04,550 --> 01:34:02,400
what did he see did he see actually

2631
01:34:05,830 --> 01:34:04,560
extraterrestrials or did he see weapons

2632
01:34:07,669 --> 01:34:05,840
or you know what did he see he saw

2633
01:34:08,790 --> 01:34:07,679
something that caused

2634
01:34:14,870 --> 01:34:08,800
a

2635
01:34:16,870 --> 01:34:14,880
thing you know to the point where he

2636
01:34:18,950 --> 01:34:16,880
said i wish i had never said anything in

2637
01:34:21,350 --> 01:34:18,960
the first place right and basically

2638
01:34:23,590 --> 01:34:21,360
that's what some of the people told me

2639
01:34:25,030 --> 01:34:23,600
just before my book came out they said

2640
01:34:26,950 --> 01:34:25,040
there might be a point where you wish

2641
01:34:29,110 --> 01:34:26,960
that you didn't do this and so i'm not

2642
01:34:31,270 --> 01:34:29,120
like bob lazar in that i'm not saying

2643
01:34:33,030 --> 01:34:31,280
this was extraterrestrial right i'm not

2644
01:34:35,189 --> 01:34:33,040
saying that i'm saying there's a

2645
01:34:37,590 --> 01:34:35,199
development at play and let's pay

2646
01:34:39,030 --> 01:34:37,600
attention to it because it first it has

2647
01:34:41,430 --> 01:34:39,040
to do with religion

2648
01:34:43,270 --> 01:34:41,440
and belief systems but there's something

2649
01:34:45,430 --> 01:34:43,280
really strange about it going on and i

2650
01:34:47,990 --> 01:34:45,440
think we have to give it you know look

2651
01:34:48,870 --> 01:34:48,000
at it but i'm not suggesting that any

2652
01:34:51,430 --> 01:34:48,880
kind of

2653
01:34:53,990 --> 01:34:51,440
hypothesis about it is true like he did

2654
01:34:55,030 --> 01:34:54,000
like we this is extraterrestrial how did

2655
01:34:56,629 --> 01:34:55,040
you know

2656
01:34:58,149 --> 01:34:56,639
i don't think he said that he actually

2657
01:35:00,550 --> 01:34:58,159
was he's extremely careful with his

2658
01:35:02,390 --> 01:35:00,560
words he would say i don't know all i

2659
01:35:03,910 --> 01:35:02,400
know is that i worked on a craft and

2660
01:35:05,750 --> 01:35:03,920
that there were documents given to me

2661
01:35:07,669 --> 01:35:05,760
that said they were extraterrestrial but

2662
01:35:09,750 --> 01:35:07,679
that could be misinformation that's what

2663
01:35:11,270 --> 01:35:09,760
i do know it operates in this manner or

2664
01:35:14,229 --> 01:35:11,280
it seems to operate in this manner but

2665
01:35:15,910 --> 01:35:14,239
he was extremely careful yeah as far as

2666
01:35:17,990 --> 01:35:15,920
yeah no he should be definitely that

2667
01:35:20,070 --> 01:35:18,000
would be the correct way to go about

2668
01:35:23,350 --> 01:35:20,080
doing that kind of thing to be involved

2669
01:35:25,110 --> 01:35:23,360
in that is to not conclude and also to

2670
01:35:27,270 --> 01:35:25,120
basically because there's been precedent

2671
01:35:28,790 --> 01:35:27,280
for mis disinformation you have to

2672
01:35:29,910 --> 01:35:28,800
assume that some of it's going to be at

2673
01:35:34,790 --> 01:35:29,920
play

2674
01:35:39,350 --> 01:35:36,390
and in fact we have better tools for

2675
01:35:41,189 --> 01:35:39,360
disinformation today than we ever did

2676
01:35:42,629 --> 01:35:41,199
better tools for

2677
01:35:45,669 --> 01:35:42,639
recognizing disinformation or for the

2678
01:35:47,510 --> 01:35:45,679
dissemination of it both

2679
01:35:49,510 --> 01:35:47,520
how do you defend yourself against

2680
01:35:50,790 --> 01:35:49,520
disinformation

2681
01:35:52,550 --> 01:35:50,800
what are some of the tools what are some

2682
01:35:55,030 --> 01:35:52,560
of the people who are watching right

2683
01:35:57,510 --> 01:35:55,040
sure okay so in american cosmic i went

2684
01:36:01,350 --> 01:35:57,520
through hoaxes of ufos right and i said

2685
01:36:03,510 --> 01:36:01,360
that hoaxes of ufos have um

2686
01:36:05,270 --> 01:36:03,520
they we should credit them for the

2687
01:36:07,830 --> 01:36:05,280
spread of belief about ufos because a

2688
01:36:10,550 --> 01:36:07,840
lot of people look at hoax ufos you know

2689
01:36:12,790 --> 01:36:10,560
if i let's put it this way i've received

2690
01:36:15,430 --> 01:36:12,800
so many videos of

2691
01:36:17,030 --> 01:36:15,440
unidentified flying objects okay and

2692
01:36:18,229 --> 01:36:17,040
some of them look pretty legit because

2693
01:36:19,830 --> 01:36:18,239
now i have a lot of friends who i can

2694
01:36:21,430 --> 01:36:19,840
say what is this you know and they'll

2695
01:36:23,590 --> 01:36:21,440
say okay it's not a drone it's not a

2696
01:36:25,750 --> 01:36:23,600
plane it's not okay it's unidentified

2697
01:36:27,510 --> 01:36:25,760
and then i have hoaxed ones where you

2698
01:36:30,390 --> 01:36:27,520
know you can generally see the outlines

2699
01:36:31,669 --> 01:36:30,400
and it looks you know okay so i showed

2700
01:36:33,990 --> 01:36:31,679
that to

2701
01:36:36,470 --> 01:36:34,000
a person who's very well known in the

2702
01:36:38,070 --> 01:36:36,480
ufo community household name

2703
01:36:40,310 --> 01:36:38,080
who's written a book best seller new

2704
01:36:42,629 --> 01:36:40,320
york times bestseller and i showed this

2705
01:36:44,390 --> 01:36:42,639
person both videos or i showed the

2706
01:36:46,870 --> 01:36:44,400
person one video and i said look check

2707
01:36:48,790 --> 01:36:46,880
this out and the person that did not to

2708
01:36:50,870 --> 01:36:48,800
that person looked like a ufo

2709
01:36:52,870 --> 01:36:50,880
because that they had been so

2710
01:36:54,629 --> 01:36:52,880
enculturated as to what a ufo is

2711
01:36:56,390 --> 01:36:54,639
supposed to look like even though it

2712
01:36:59,270 --> 01:36:56,400
most likely doesn't look like that right

2713
01:37:00,870 --> 01:36:59,280
so there so but that was really a ufo in

2714
01:37:02,790 --> 01:37:00,880
the sense that it was fully an

2715
01:37:04,390 --> 01:37:02,800
unidentified flying object whereas the

2716
01:37:05,990 --> 01:37:04,400
other one was completely hoaxed and they

2717
01:37:09,030 --> 01:37:06,000
thought that that one was legitimate

2718
01:37:11,910 --> 01:37:09,040
video so i don't think we have the tools

2719
01:37:14,310 --> 01:37:11,920
to be able to adjudicate what's

2720
01:37:17,030 --> 01:37:14,320
ufo and what's not so i think that when

2721
01:37:19,030 --> 01:37:17,040
we see things especially and their video

2722
01:37:21,109 --> 01:37:19,040
you know and that kind of thing um like

2723
01:37:23,030 --> 01:37:21,119
jacques vale i had always said believe

2724
01:37:26,390 --> 01:37:23,040
nothing you know and use your

2725
01:37:29,109 --> 01:37:26,400
discernment okay so i think that um

2726
01:37:31,189 --> 01:37:29,119
in today's world of you know

2727
01:37:33,910 --> 01:37:31,199
deep fakes and things like that it's

2728
01:37:36,070 --> 01:37:33,920
pretty impossible i think to to figure

2729
01:37:40,629 --> 01:37:36,080
that stuff out so i think that the best

2730
01:37:42,709 --> 01:37:40,639
uh default action is just to not believe

2731
01:37:46,229 --> 01:37:42,719
and if it seems crazy the most likely is

2732
01:37:50,149 --> 01:37:48,470
something else i'd like you to elaborate

2733
01:37:51,990 --> 01:37:50,159
on if you don't mind is the contrast

2734
01:37:53,669 --> 01:37:52,000
between the academic world and then the

2735
01:37:56,390 --> 01:37:53,679
government world with respect to how

2736
01:37:59,030 --> 01:37:56,400
they operate openness versus closeness

2737
01:38:01,109 --> 01:37:59,040
because generally the more skeptically

2738
01:38:03,030 --> 01:38:01,119
minded people take the academic view and

2739
01:38:04,629 --> 01:38:03,040
they can't imagine that the reason for

2740
01:38:06,390 --> 01:38:04,639
closedness would be

2741
01:38:09,590 --> 01:38:06,400
anything other than falseness or

2742
01:38:11,669 --> 01:38:09,600
beguiling or whitewashing

2743
01:38:13,510 --> 01:38:11,679
i have to admit that i myself am similar

2744
01:38:15,270 --> 01:38:13,520
to this in the sense that while i'm not

2745
01:38:16,950 --> 01:38:15,280
an academic it's the place where i'm

2746
01:38:18,629 --> 01:38:16,960
most comfortable in it's was my my

2747
01:38:20,149 --> 01:38:18,639
training in a sense so i have a

2748
01:38:23,669 --> 01:38:20,159
difficult time with concealment and

2749
01:38:26,229 --> 01:38:23,679
non-disclosure so why don't you justify

2750
01:38:29,189 --> 01:38:26,239
or make the case for closedness

2751
01:38:31,270 --> 01:38:29,199
okay sure so all right and this can be

2752
01:38:33,990 --> 01:38:31,280
applied by by the way to the vatican as

2753
01:38:35,109 --> 01:38:34,000
well not just to ufo great great

2754
01:38:37,669 --> 01:38:35,119
insiders

2755
01:38:38,870 --> 01:38:37,679
okay so all right

2756
01:38:41,430 --> 01:38:38,880
a lot of

2757
01:38:45,030 --> 01:38:41,440
i'll give an example from my actual life

2758
01:38:47,430 --> 01:38:45,040
so something that was tangential to

2759
01:38:49,830 --> 01:38:47,440
my ufo research but happened during it

2760
01:38:52,790 --> 01:38:49,840
was my catholic research into the saints

2761
01:38:56,390 --> 01:38:52,800
of the catholic church that um bilocated

2762
01:38:59,830 --> 01:38:56,400
and levitated and i was going i was um

2763
01:39:01,510 --> 01:38:59,840
i had funding from a billionaire who was

2764
01:39:03,830 --> 01:39:01,520
interested in this research this

2765
01:39:05,910 --> 01:39:03,840
catholic research he's catholic and so

2766
01:39:08,310 --> 01:39:05,920
um

2767
01:39:09,990 --> 01:39:08,320
i went with tyler actually brought tyler

2768
01:39:11,910 --> 01:39:10,000
with me to the vatican and we checked it

2769
01:39:15,109 --> 01:39:11,920
out and i you know looked at the the

2770
01:39:17,750 --> 01:39:15,119
records and saw just you know

2771
01:39:20,790 --> 01:39:17,760
so much information about

2772
01:39:22,709 --> 01:39:20,800
saint joseph of copertino who was known

2773
01:39:24,229 --> 01:39:22,719
you know he was said to have levitated

2774
01:39:26,790 --> 01:39:24,239
and things like that some other things

2775
01:39:28,070 --> 01:39:26,800
anyway so um the billionaire fusion

2776
01:39:30,229 --> 01:39:28,080
american

2777
01:39:31,030 --> 01:39:30,239
with with some of the people who helped

2778
01:39:33,830 --> 01:39:31,040
me

2779
01:39:35,669 --> 01:39:33,840
um establish the funding to get there to

2780
01:39:38,550 --> 01:39:35,679
the vatican to do this research

2781
01:39:40,390 --> 01:39:38,560
they wanted to purchase the manuscript

2782
01:39:41,830 --> 01:39:40,400
which was a vatican document

2783
01:39:43,830 --> 01:39:41,840
okay they wanted to

2784
01:39:45,270 --> 01:39:43,840
own it okay

2785
01:39:47,910 --> 01:39:45,280
and so

2786
01:39:50,390 --> 01:39:47,920
they said diana can you convince the

2787
01:39:53,030 --> 01:39:50,400
vatican to give this document to us now

2788
01:39:55,510 --> 01:39:53,040
this is a document from the 1700s

2789
01:40:01,510 --> 01:39:55,520
that

2790
01:40:03,910 --> 01:40:01,520
not a democracy

2791
01:40:05,030 --> 01:40:03,920
right this is a pre-modern

2792
01:40:07,109 --> 01:40:05,040
country

2793
01:40:08,709 --> 01:40:07,119
and so the people in the united states

2794
01:40:11,350 --> 01:40:08,719
who were they were comprised of

2795
01:40:13,910 --> 01:40:11,360
academics and then a billionaire right

2796
01:40:15,270 --> 01:40:13,920
and so they basically said

2797
01:40:17,270 --> 01:40:15,280
surely they would do that they would

2798
01:40:18,790 --> 01:40:17,280
give it to us so that we could study it

2799
01:40:20,470 --> 01:40:18,800
and i said i don't think they're going

2800
01:40:22,629 --> 01:40:20,480
to do that i think that you have to be a

2801
01:40:25,109 --> 01:40:22,639
little bit oh you know we have to be

2802
01:40:28,149 --> 01:40:25,119
nuanced in asking for this because

2803
01:40:29,990 --> 01:40:28,159
this is their sacred tradition you know

2804
01:40:31,830 --> 01:40:30,000
and we just can't do that we just can't

2805
01:40:33,430 --> 01:40:31,840
give it to them it's like if you ask the

2806
01:40:34,310 --> 01:40:33,440
united states to give up the liberty

2807
01:40:37,109 --> 01:40:34,320
bell

2808
01:40:38,390 --> 01:40:37,119
or you know over the actual constitution

2809
01:40:40,310 --> 01:40:38,400
right i mean we're talking about

2810
01:40:41,910 --> 01:40:40,320
something so and they were asking not

2811
01:40:43,510 --> 01:40:41,920
simply to give it up but to buy it like

2812
01:40:46,310 --> 01:40:43,520
offer the money for it

2813
01:40:47,510 --> 01:40:46,320
yeah you know like we want to buy this

2814
01:40:49,030 --> 01:40:47,520
and they didn't want a picture of it

2815
01:40:50,790 --> 01:40:49,040
that didn't suffice for some reason no

2816
01:40:52,629 --> 01:40:50,800
no they did they wanted it digitized but

2817
01:40:54,550 --> 01:40:52,639
we're talking about a document of like

2818
01:40:55,830 --> 01:40:54,560
almost a thousand pages right so it

2819
01:40:57,750 --> 01:40:55,840
would take place

2820
01:40:58,870 --> 01:40:57,760
and um so you know i was kind of the

2821
01:41:00,790 --> 01:40:58,880
middle person

2822
01:41:03,910 --> 01:41:00,800
doing this and i

2823
01:41:05,990 --> 01:41:03,920
i tried to explain to them that the you

2824
01:41:08,629 --> 01:41:06,000
know the assumptions that we have that

2825
01:41:10,870 --> 01:41:08,639
things should be completely open sourced

2826
01:41:13,910 --> 01:41:10,880
aren't shared by other people in other

2827
01:41:16,070 --> 01:41:13,920
places for various reasons and we we

2828
01:41:18,390 --> 01:41:16,080
just we are so arrogant that we don't

2829
01:41:21,270 --> 01:41:18,400
see that you know we're like we should

2830
01:41:22,709 --> 01:41:21,280
have that because of humanity right well

2831
01:41:24,310 --> 01:41:22,719
how do you know because you know things

2832
01:41:25,669 --> 01:41:24,320
that we take we're going to use for our

2833
01:41:27,669 --> 01:41:25,679
own benefit

2834
01:41:30,390 --> 01:41:27,679
you know so they're they're not seeing

2835
01:41:32,470 --> 01:41:30,400
it like we see it so that's that's my

2836
01:41:34,550 --> 01:41:32,480
advocacy for i mean i'm not going to

2837
01:41:37,030 --> 01:41:34,560
advocate for you know secrecy with

2838
01:41:39,350 --> 01:41:37,040
respect to almost everything but there

2839
01:41:41,030 --> 01:41:39,360
are if there's something secret there

2840
01:41:43,109 --> 01:41:41,040
are reasons that those people want it to

2841
01:41:44,310 --> 01:41:43,119
be secret

2842
01:41:46,629 --> 01:41:44,320
now i'm not saying that's a good thing

2843
01:41:49,189 --> 01:41:46,639
for everything you know but definitely i

2844
01:41:50,950 --> 01:41:49,199
mean the vatican has their sacred

2845
01:41:52,870 --> 01:41:50,960
documents these are not necessarily

2846
01:41:54,629 --> 01:41:52,880
secret documents but they're theirs and

2847
01:41:57,350 --> 01:41:54,639
they're sacred to them

2848
01:42:00,629 --> 01:41:57,360
so we did establish uh we did get the

2849
01:42:03,430 --> 01:42:00,639
document um but i kind of am the person

2850
01:42:05,669 --> 01:42:03,440
who's the keeper of it and i can decide

2851
01:42:07,750 --> 01:42:05,679
who's you know i vet who see who goes in

2852
01:42:09,510 --> 01:42:07,760
and researches it and who doesn't and

2853
01:42:11,510 --> 01:42:09,520
you know what it's a document that's

2854
01:42:13,510 --> 01:42:11,520
written in latin and 17th century

2855
01:42:16,629 --> 01:42:13,520
italian and not a lot of people are able

2856
01:42:19,669 --> 01:42:18,070
speaking of latin you mentioned that

2857
01:42:21,430 --> 01:42:19,679
tyler said

2858
01:42:23,270 --> 01:42:21,440
or sorry that you pointed out to tyler

2859
01:42:25,030 --> 01:42:23,280
that there was some latin written and it

2860
01:42:26,790 --> 01:42:25,040
couldn't the lecture you were giving but

2861
01:42:28,229 --> 01:42:26,800
the audio was not let's say was one of

2862
01:42:29,669 --> 01:42:28,239
the highest quality for whatever reason

2863
01:42:31,270 --> 01:42:29,679
the person who was recording didn't have

2864
01:42:33,030 --> 01:42:31,280
a mic on you so the camera is all the

2865
01:42:36,229 --> 01:42:33,040
way at the back and anytime the audience

2866
01:42:37,910 --> 01:42:36,239
claps oh my gosh my ears just

2867
01:42:39,270 --> 01:42:37,920
almost broke every single time because i

2868
01:42:41,109 --> 01:42:39,280
had to turn the volume up so loud to

2869
01:42:42,790 --> 01:42:41,119
hear you oh that's too bad between that

2870
01:42:43,990 --> 01:42:42,800
and the camera well anyway you mentioned

2871
01:42:46,390 --> 01:42:44,000
that

2872
01:42:48,629 --> 01:42:46,400
you were pointing out to tyler there's

2873
01:42:50,229 --> 01:42:48,639
some part of something written in latin

2874
01:42:52,070 --> 01:42:50,239
he said oh i didn't even know you also

2875
01:42:53,830 --> 01:42:52,080
mentioned it's to tell them quote

2876
01:42:55,910 --> 01:42:53,840
unquote that they dominate so i wasn't

2877
01:42:57,830 --> 01:42:55,920
sure who to them and they were referring

2878
01:42:59,590 --> 01:42:57,840
to so why don't you talk about that

2879
01:43:00,870 --> 01:42:59,600
please yeah okay so that was really

2880
01:43:02,550 --> 01:43:00,880
interesting so

2881
01:43:05,430 --> 01:43:02,560
uh one thing that was kind of funny

2882
01:43:07,510 --> 01:43:05,440
about my friendship with tyler was that

2883
01:43:09,350 --> 01:43:07,520
he was part of the space program he's

2884
01:43:11,430 --> 01:43:09,360
really integral into the space program

2885
01:43:13,430 --> 01:43:11,440
and he launches you know these rockets

2886
01:43:15,990 --> 01:43:13,440
and works with spacex and that type of

2887
01:43:17,750 --> 01:43:16,000
thing and what i found out which he

2888
01:43:20,149 --> 01:43:17,760
actually did not know and i pointed it

2889
01:43:21,830 --> 01:43:20,159
out to him was that the whole thing was

2890
01:43:23,510 --> 01:43:21,840
a ritual the whole thing got was

2891
01:43:26,390 --> 01:43:23,520
ritualized so

2892
01:43:27,910 --> 01:43:26,400
they identified certain time periods

2893
01:43:30,870 --> 01:43:27,920
astronomically when it would be

2894
01:43:32,390 --> 01:43:30,880
beneficial to launch and they also had

2895
01:43:34,470 --> 01:43:32,400
the rockets had

2896
01:43:36,870 --> 01:43:34,480
um roman gods on them

2897
01:43:38,950 --> 01:43:36,880
and they also had um latin first century

2898
01:43:41,149 --> 01:43:38,960
latin not medieval latin it wasn't

2899
01:43:43,189 --> 01:43:41,159
catholic latin it was basically

2900
01:43:45,750 --> 01:43:43,199
imperialistic latin

2901
01:43:47,189 --> 01:43:45,760
and so and everybody had to stay in

2902
01:43:49,350 --> 01:43:47,199
their own space like there was a place

2903
01:43:52,550 --> 01:43:49,360
where they had to stay they wore the

2904
01:43:55,350 --> 01:43:52,560
same clothes for every mission

2905
01:43:56,709 --> 01:43:55,360
um and they ate the same food i'm so

2906
01:43:58,870 --> 01:43:56,719
sorry to drop are you referring to a

2907
01:44:01,510 --> 01:43:58,880
spacex launch i missed that

2908
01:44:04,070 --> 01:44:01,520
yeah yeah well not all spacex launches

2909
01:44:06,070 --> 01:44:04,080
just certain of them with tyler involved

2910
01:44:08,070 --> 01:44:06,080
and so when he would be involved

2911
01:44:09,590 --> 01:44:08,080
launching these satellites into space a

2912
01:44:12,229 --> 01:44:09,600
lot of times they'd be with spacex

2913
01:44:14,709 --> 01:44:12,239
because that's who they used um

2914
01:44:16,310 --> 01:44:14,719
yeah so they would they would go you

2915
01:44:18,550 --> 01:44:16,320
know they've been doing this from it

2916
01:44:20,709 --> 01:44:18,560
looks like from the 1950s onward they've

2917
01:44:23,270 --> 01:44:20,719
been doing this ritual and they would

2918
01:44:25,510 --> 01:44:23,280
even have like a chaplain there and you

2919
01:44:28,550 --> 01:44:25,520
know they would it was very very listen

2920
01:44:31,669 --> 01:44:28,560
it was very ritualized and so i noticed

2921
01:44:33,189 --> 01:44:31,679
that and i asked him about it and i said

2922
01:44:35,109 --> 01:44:33,199
do you know that this is first century

2923
01:44:38,629 --> 01:44:35,119
latin that's written on

2924
01:44:39,669 --> 01:44:38,639
these rockets and he said no i didn't

2925
01:44:42,070 --> 01:44:39,679
know that he didn't even know it was

2926
01:44:43,830 --> 01:44:42,080
aladdin and so we read them we i

2927
01:44:45,669 --> 01:44:43,840
translated them all and i said this wow

2928
01:44:47,590 --> 01:44:45,679
this says that and i said

2929
01:44:49,910 --> 01:44:47,600
who up there in space is going to be

2930
01:44:52,629 --> 01:44:49,920
reading this like why would you put that

2931
01:44:55,590 --> 01:44:52,639
on there you know that seems so strange

2932
01:44:58,550 --> 01:44:55,600
and he said well i imagine it's for them

2933
01:45:03,350 --> 01:45:01,510
okay who's who are they you know and so

2934
01:45:05,270 --> 01:45:03,360
he he just didn't say anything

2935
01:45:06,870 --> 01:45:05,280
but that's that's what it was

2936
01:45:08,950 --> 01:45:06,880
so the two questions that occur is

2937
01:45:11,590 --> 01:45:08,960
firstly what did it say and then also

2938
01:45:13,270 --> 01:45:11,600
does this mean that elon musk himself

2939
01:45:15,910 --> 01:45:13,280
is putting those messages there like

2940
01:45:18,229 --> 01:45:15,920
elon is a believer in et's and and so on

2941
01:45:20,390 --> 01:45:18,239
or is it just one of the staff members

2942
01:45:22,870 --> 01:45:20,400
no no this is beyond this is way before

2943
01:45:25,350 --> 01:45:22,880
elon so it has nothing to do with him

2944
01:45:27,750 --> 01:45:25,360
um his company is just the company that

2945
01:45:29,669 --> 01:45:27,760
puts those does the launches to get the

2946
01:45:31,590 --> 01:45:29,679
satellites up but he has nothing to do

2947
01:45:34,070 --> 01:45:31,600
with creating the satellites

2948
01:45:36,470 --> 01:45:34,080
or of putting the

2949
01:45:38,229 --> 01:45:36,480
um roman stuff on them nothing at all to

2950
01:45:41,270 --> 01:45:38,239
do with that that that was definitely

2951
01:45:43,189 --> 01:45:41,280
predates him um so what does it mean

2952
01:45:45,109 --> 01:45:43,199
though um

2953
01:45:47,830 --> 01:45:45,119
yeah what was written on it yeah so to

2954
01:45:50,229 --> 01:45:47,840
me it looks like what i what people have

2955
01:45:52,229 --> 01:45:50,239
called like exo theology or astro

2956
01:45:54,950 --> 01:45:52,239
theology it's this

2957
01:45:56,830 --> 01:45:54,960
this kind of well i call it it's not a

2958
01:45:59,990 --> 01:45:56,840
specific religion but it's a

2959
01:46:02,470 --> 01:46:00,000
religiosity of people who

2960
01:46:05,030 --> 01:46:02,480
are involved in the space program and

2961
01:46:06,709 --> 01:46:05,040
it's this um you know it's roman you

2962
01:46:08,470 --> 01:46:06,719
know the united states kind of considers

2963
01:46:10,390 --> 01:46:08,480
itself roman look at our you know

2964
01:46:12,709 --> 01:46:10,400
architecture and that type of thing

2965
01:46:15,189 --> 01:46:12,719
we're like the new imperial

2966
01:46:17,830 --> 01:46:15,199
place right and so i think that's what

2967
01:46:21,430 --> 01:46:17,840
it has to do with um they're using the

2968
01:46:23,830 --> 01:46:21,440
images of gods and goddesses from rome

2969
01:46:24,629 --> 01:46:23,840
um and what do the what does the latin

2970
01:46:26,950 --> 01:46:24,639
say

2971
01:46:28,229 --> 01:46:26,960
um here's a here's something for you to

2972
01:46:30,629 --> 01:46:28,239
check out

2973
01:46:32,550 --> 01:46:30,639
and it's the uh these they they're

2974
01:46:33,350 --> 01:46:32,560
called patches

2975
01:46:35,590 --> 01:46:33,360
and

2976
01:46:37,590 --> 01:46:35,600
have you seen those patches okay so haha

2977
01:46:40,229 --> 01:46:37,600
we don't know or ha ha but you don't

2978
01:46:42,070 --> 01:46:40,239
yeah uh-huh yeah and so a lot of those

2979
01:46:43,830 --> 01:46:42,080
are in latin and that's where you see

2980
01:46:45,830 --> 01:46:43,840
and a lot of those would be on the

2981
01:46:47,350 --> 01:46:45,840
actual satellites

2982
01:46:49,109 --> 01:46:47,360
the images would be on the satellites

2983
01:46:51,910 --> 01:46:49,119
and then people who were working the

2984
01:46:54,390 --> 01:46:51,920
mission they would get the patch

2985
01:46:55,830 --> 01:46:54,400
uh-huh and so the haha part was that on

2986
01:46:57,910 --> 01:46:55,840
the satellite or that was just on the

2987
01:46:59,030 --> 01:46:57,920
patch

2988
01:47:01,590 --> 01:46:59,040
um

2989
01:47:03,270 --> 01:47:01,600
usually you just have the god or goddess

2990
01:47:04,790 --> 01:47:03,280
and the image like the dragon or

2991
01:47:07,030 --> 01:47:04,800
something like that on the satellite

2992
01:47:08,950 --> 01:47:07,040
with the latin phrase that accompanies

2993
01:47:13,109 --> 01:47:08,960
it and the latin phrases are different

2994
01:47:16,229 --> 01:47:15,109
you also mentioned there's a picture of

2995
01:47:17,590 --> 01:47:16,239
that that you were going to send to the

2996
01:47:19,030 --> 01:47:17,600
audience at that time because remember

2997
01:47:20,709 --> 01:47:19,040
i'm listening to the lecture and you

2998
01:47:22,070 --> 01:47:20,719
said yeah if anyone's interested i'll

2999
01:47:23,669 --> 01:47:22,080
email it to you can you email it to me

3000
01:47:25,189 --> 01:47:23,679
so i can place it on screen right now

3001
01:47:26,950 --> 01:47:25,199
for now right now sorry when i'm editing

3002
01:47:29,270 --> 01:47:26,960
this i'll make a note to remind you of

3003
01:47:30,709 --> 01:47:29,280
that is that okay yeah i could get it

3004
01:47:32,870 --> 01:47:30,719
right now if you want

3005
01:47:34,310 --> 01:47:32,880
the image is being displayed right now

3006
01:47:36,149 --> 01:47:34,320
so if you're listening to this on the

3007
01:47:37,350 --> 01:47:36,159
audio platforms then i recommend you

3008
01:47:38,790 --> 01:47:37,360
click the youtube link in the

3009
01:47:40,470 --> 01:47:38,800
description

3010
01:47:43,109 --> 01:47:40,480
what you're seeing is the high quality

3011
01:47:54,149 --> 01:47:43,119
capture unfortunately the source images

3012
01:47:57,030 --> 01:47:55,830
you also refer or not you someone

3013
01:47:59,910 --> 01:47:57,040
referred to the president as a

3014
01:48:02,470 --> 01:47:59,920
short-timer okay what does that mean

3015
01:48:04,310 --> 01:48:02,480
yeah so um and i heard i'd heard this

3016
01:48:06,870 --> 01:48:04,320
from not just tyler but a lot of the

3017
01:48:09,750 --> 01:48:06,880
people who are part of the program

3018
01:48:13,189 --> 01:48:09,760
um that presidents are short timers in

3019
01:48:15,510 --> 01:48:13,199
the sense that there must be a program

3020
01:48:17,910 --> 01:48:15,520
that's not a short time program but a

3021
01:48:19,910 --> 01:48:17,920
long time program and therefore the

3022
01:48:21,830 --> 01:48:19,920
presidents come and go and therefore

3023
01:48:23,750 --> 01:48:21,840
they're not given the information think

3024
01:48:25,830 --> 01:48:23,760
of tyler tyler's been doing this since

3025
01:48:28,790 --> 01:48:25,840
he was at least 20 years old

3026
01:48:30,830 --> 01:48:28,800
and now he's in his 60s i mean that he's

3027
01:48:33,590 --> 01:48:30,840
a long-timer and so he has a lot of

3028
01:48:35,189 --> 01:48:33,600
information and the presidents don't

3029
01:48:36,709 --> 01:48:35,199
have all that information they're only

3030
01:48:38,070 --> 01:48:36,719
given the information that they need to

3031
01:48:41,990 --> 01:48:38,080
know

3032
01:48:43,910 --> 01:48:42,000
pseudonym plenty and i don't think

3033
01:48:45,270 --> 01:48:43,920
everyone here knows who tyler is or what

3034
01:48:46,709 --> 01:48:45,280
the story is around tyler so do mine

3035
01:48:47,669 --> 01:48:46,719
quickly just outlining that so that

3036
01:48:49,669 --> 01:48:47,679
people can

3037
01:48:51,750 --> 01:48:49,679
re-watch say okay now that makes sense i

3038
01:48:54,709 --> 01:48:51,760
didn't give the context to sure

3039
01:48:57,590 --> 01:48:54,719
sure okay so i wrote this book i called

3040
01:49:00,629 --> 01:48:57,600
it american cosmic in reference to

3041
01:49:02,709 --> 01:49:00,639
um the russian cosmists because to me

3042
01:49:05,350 --> 01:49:02,719
russian cosmos is a great book for any

3043
01:49:06,390 --> 01:49:05,360
of our listeners um

3044
01:49:08,310 --> 01:49:06,400
um

3045
01:49:09,590 --> 01:49:08,320
by i think it's henry young

3046
01:49:11,830 --> 01:49:09,600
and

3047
01:49:13,510 --> 01:49:11,840
it's about the belief systems of the

3048
01:49:14,790 --> 01:49:13,520
people who started their the russian

3049
01:49:17,350 --> 01:49:14,800
space program

3050
01:49:18,950 --> 01:49:17,360
and so when i started american cosmic

3051
01:49:21,590 --> 01:49:18,960
and i met tyler

3052
01:49:23,430 --> 01:49:21,600
he had a very similar belief system and

3053
01:49:25,030 --> 01:49:23,440
tyler was this person who actually

3054
01:49:28,950 --> 01:49:25,040
reached out to me

3055
01:49:30,390 --> 01:49:28,960
and he was part of a secret program now

3056
01:49:33,030 --> 01:49:30,400
they're not they're known not to be

3057
01:49:34,709 --> 01:49:33,040
secret and he had clearances and that

3058
01:49:37,030 --> 01:49:34,719
sort of thing and he worked for every

3059
01:49:38,709 --> 01:49:37,040
almost every space shuttle launch okay

3060
01:49:41,910 --> 01:49:38,719
he's a mission controller

3061
01:49:43,830 --> 01:49:41,920
and um he's a very fascinating person

3062
01:49:45,109 --> 01:49:43,840
i kind of kept him at a distance for

3063
01:49:47,030 --> 01:49:45,119
about a year and a half before i

3064
01:49:50,390 --> 01:49:47,040
actually met him in person

3065
01:49:52,950 --> 01:49:50,400
and then he took me and gary nolan to

3066
01:49:55,669 --> 01:49:52,960
new mexico to an alleged crash site for

3067
01:49:57,990 --> 01:49:55,679
ufos because he told me that ufo's from

3068
01:50:00,070 --> 01:49:58,000
the 1940s he told me that i didn't

3069
01:50:01,270 --> 01:50:00,080
believe in ufos and he said you only

3070
01:50:03,350 --> 01:50:01,280
believe in them as kind of like

3071
01:50:05,910 --> 01:50:03,360
imaginary things he said what if i

3072
01:50:07,189 --> 01:50:05,920
showed you evidence that and so this was

3073
01:50:09,669 --> 01:50:07,199
where i was like

3074
01:50:12,709 --> 01:50:09,679
automatically suspicious i was like wow

3075
01:50:14,470 --> 01:50:12,719
you know this is crazy but i'll go

3076
01:50:16,790 --> 01:50:14,480
um because you know it's still evidence

3077
01:50:19,669 --> 01:50:16,800
there's still data even if he's

3078
01:50:21,510 --> 01:50:19,679
disinformation it's still data so um

3079
01:50:26,149 --> 01:50:21,520
anyway so that's who tyler is tyler's

3080
01:50:28,550 --> 01:50:27,430
do you believe that the government

3081
01:50:31,510 --> 01:50:28,560
believes that they understand what's

3082
01:50:33,590 --> 01:50:31,520
going on behind the ufo phenomenon

3083
01:50:37,189 --> 01:50:33,600
no

3084
01:50:39,189 --> 01:50:37,199
what's going on or you think that they

3085
01:50:41,350 --> 01:50:39,199
think that they have a handle on it

3086
01:50:42,950 --> 01:50:41,360
i think that there's probably a number

3087
01:50:44,629 --> 01:50:42,960
of you know how in the united states we

3088
01:50:46,390 --> 01:50:44,639
have different we have democrats and

3089
01:50:47,830 --> 01:50:46,400
republicans and things like that i think

3090
01:50:49,189 --> 01:50:47,840
that the government is pretty much the

3091
01:50:51,270 --> 01:50:49,199
space program is like that there's

3092
01:50:53,510 --> 01:50:51,280
different factions within it and some of

3093
01:50:55,350 --> 01:50:53,520
them are tasked with trying to figure

3094
01:50:56,950 --> 01:50:55,360
this out and some of them think they

3095
01:50:58,390 --> 01:50:56,960
know what it is about and some of them

3096
01:51:00,629 --> 01:50:58,400
know well we don't know what this is

3097
01:51:01,430 --> 01:51:00,639
about so that's how i think it really is

3098
01:51:03,990 --> 01:51:01,440
just

3099
01:51:05,270 --> 01:51:04,000
compartmentalized and that's why i use a

3100
01:51:07,350 --> 01:51:05,280
lot of um

3101
01:51:09,270 --> 01:51:07,360
i use a lot of references to this movie

3102
01:51:11,910 --> 01:51:09,280
and book called fight club

3103
01:51:13,270 --> 01:51:11,920
and it's basically about this person

3104
01:51:16,390 --> 01:51:13,280
well

3105
01:51:17,990 --> 01:51:16,400
probably your audience knows but there

3106
01:51:19,510 --> 01:51:18,000
that's what it looks like so before was

3107
01:51:21,430 --> 01:51:19,520
the invisible college where people

3108
01:51:22,550 --> 01:51:21,440
worked together who were scientists and

3109
01:51:24,070 --> 01:51:22,560
they were secret and they're trying to

3110
01:51:26,550 --> 01:51:24,080
figure out the stuff on their cover of

3111
01:51:28,950 --> 01:51:26,560
secrecy but then it morphed into i think

3112
01:51:31,189 --> 01:51:28,960
in the late 80s and early 90s it morphed

3113
01:51:33,910 --> 01:51:31,199
into fight club where people didn't even

3114
01:51:35,590 --> 01:51:33,920
tell each other what they knew in order

3115
01:51:38,229 --> 01:51:35,600
to keep the secret

3116
01:51:41,350 --> 01:51:39,430
do you believe that we're dealing with

3117
01:51:43,350 --> 01:51:41,360
multiple phenomenon that have different

3118
01:51:45,189 --> 01:51:43,360
explanations rather than a single one

3119
01:51:49,189 --> 01:51:45,199
yeah

3120
01:51:53,910 --> 01:51:51,189
so why do you think that

3121
01:51:57,030 --> 01:51:53,920
because they look very different so orbs

3122
01:51:58,149 --> 01:51:57,040
look different than tic tacs which

3123
01:52:00,870 --> 01:51:58,159
i don't even know if they are

3124
01:52:03,750 --> 01:52:00,880
extraterrestrial um and there are things

3125
01:52:07,830 --> 01:52:03,760
that like i could see from catholic

3126
01:52:10,390 --> 01:52:07,840
history from like you know 1400 1500

3127
01:52:13,350 --> 01:52:10,400
that look like john max abductions you

3128
01:52:15,589 --> 01:52:13,360
know and you can say wow that looks

3129
01:52:18,070 --> 01:52:15,599
exactly like you know it could become it

3130
01:52:18,950 --> 01:52:18,080
could come out of john mack's book

3131
01:52:20,870 --> 01:52:18,960
uh

3132
01:52:23,109 --> 01:52:20,880
i think it's called abduction actually

3133
01:52:25,189 --> 01:52:23,119
um human encounters with aliens

3134
01:52:26,629 --> 01:52:25,199
so yeah those are different i mean i

3135
01:52:28,629 --> 01:52:26,639
think they're different i could be wrong

3136
01:52:30,149 --> 01:52:28,639
but they look different

3137
01:52:31,910 --> 01:52:30,159
have you seen this video one video i

3138
01:52:35,430 --> 01:52:31,920
believe called biblically accurate

3139
01:52:37,189 --> 01:52:35,440
angels yeah that's a i like that video

3140
01:52:39,109 --> 01:52:37,199
okay i'll link it or i'll even display

3141
01:52:40,470 --> 01:52:39,119
some of it here for people to watch now

3142
01:52:42,149 --> 01:52:40,480
does anything that you've learned about

3143
01:52:45,030 --> 01:52:42,159
the phenomenon ring true with those

3144
01:52:46,870 --> 01:52:45,040
depictions yeah yeah

3145
01:52:49,189 --> 01:52:46,880
i mean when you look yeah okay so if you

3146
01:52:51,910 --> 01:52:49,199
look at angels even you have to say

3147
01:52:53,669 --> 01:52:51,920
that even if you take this category of

3148
01:52:55,750 --> 01:52:53,679
thing called angels which we all think

3149
01:52:58,149 --> 01:52:55,760
we know what they are but if we go back

3150
01:53:00,149 --> 01:52:58,159
to the biblical text where they derive

3151
01:53:02,070 --> 01:53:00,159
from you'll see that none of those

3152
01:53:04,709 --> 01:53:02,080
encounters look the same

3153
01:53:07,189 --> 01:53:04,719
so even angels don't even look the same

3154
01:53:08,310 --> 01:53:07,199
to one another so you have so you have

3155
01:53:10,229 --> 01:53:08,320
angels that

3156
01:53:12,070 --> 01:53:10,239
take on the they look like humans and

3157
01:53:13,910 --> 01:53:12,080
they fight with like jacob and they

3158
01:53:15,669 --> 01:53:13,920
almost they dislocate his hip and things

3159
01:53:18,629 --> 01:53:15,679
like that and then you have these angels

3160
01:53:20,790 --> 01:53:18,639
that look very weird you know and scary

3161
01:53:22,390 --> 01:53:20,800
and then you look at saint francis you

3162
01:53:24,470 --> 01:53:22,400
know and his

3163
01:53:26,629 --> 01:53:24,480
uh situation with uh and it looks like

3164
01:53:29,669 --> 01:53:26,639
an angel they call it a seraphim right

3165
01:53:31,189 --> 01:53:29,679
and it like it it zaps him and he gets

3166
01:53:33,270 --> 01:53:31,199
these these things which the catholic

3167
01:53:37,350 --> 01:53:33,280
church calls stigmata but they look like

3168
01:53:39,030 --> 01:53:37,360
burns right and you know yeah so i mean

3169
01:53:41,510 --> 01:53:39,040
once you start to get to the primary

3170
01:53:43,990 --> 01:53:41,520
source materials of these things they

3171
01:53:46,470 --> 01:53:44,000
look very strange and they don't look at

3172
01:53:48,390 --> 01:53:46,480
all like what we have you know what has

3173
01:53:50,390 --> 01:53:48,400
come down to us as

3174
01:53:51,990 --> 01:53:50,400
what they're supposed to be like

3175
01:53:53,990 --> 01:53:52,000
yeah they're not the huggies no babies

3176
01:53:55,990 --> 01:53:54,000
they're not on a cloud with a supple

3177
01:53:57,430 --> 01:53:56,000
behind and smiling creepily at you from

3178
01:53:58,950 --> 01:53:57,440
a distance and you know even the people

3179
01:54:01,910 --> 01:53:58,960
that had those experiences back in the

3180
01:54:03,750 --> 01:54:01,920
day never said that either like saint

3181
01:54:06,070 --> 01:54:03,760
teresa of avila she's a person who had

3182
01:54:07,109 --> 01:54:06,080
an experience and now it's made popular

3183
01:54:09,669 --> 01:54:07,119
in rome

3184
01:54:12,149 --> 01:54:09,679
um bernini created statue called the

3185
01:54:13,510 --> 01:54:12,159
ecstasy of saint teresa and it's in rome

3186
01:54:16,149 --> 01:54:13,520
and you can see it

3187
01:54:18,629 --> 01:54:16,159
and it's a it's this beautiful statue of

3188
01:54:20,390 --> 01:54:18,639
saint teresa in ecstasy it looks like

3189
01:54:22,790 --> 01:54:20,400
with this little cherub like angel next

3190
01:54:24,470 --> 01:54:22,800
to her but if you actually read it if

3191
01:54:25,350 --> 01:54:24,480
you read the account of it what she

3192
01:54:27,350 --> 01:54:25,360
wrote

3193
01:54:29,669 --> 01:54:27,360
um she basically says

3194
01:54:31,270 --> 01:54:29,679
i don't know what thing this is i don't

3195
01:54:33,669 --> 01:54:31,280
know if it's an angel

3196
01:54:35,510 --> 01:54:33,679
and then she said all i know is that

3197
01:54:38,070 --> 01:54:35,520
usually i see angels in my mind as an

3198
01:54:40,070 --> 01:54:38,080
imagination and this one is real it's

3199
01:54:43,030 --> 01:54:40,080
actually fleshy and it's about three

3200
01:54:45,109 --> 01:54:43,040
feet tall and it's all a light and it

3201
01:54:46,149 --> 01:54:45,119
also has this long thing that has a dart

3202
01:54:48,790 --> 01:54:46,159
at the end

3203
01:54:51,109 --> 01:54:48,800
like kind of like a uh an arrow and it

3204
01:54:53,830 --> 01:54:51,119
like basically sticks her with this

3205
01:54:55,830 --> 01:54:53,840
arrow i mean that's creepy and you know

3206
01:54:57,510 --> 01:54:55,840
that's exactly what she said about it

3207
01:54:59,669 --> 01:54:57,520
and then you have this beautiful statue

3208
01:55:04,310 --> 01:54:59,679
that doesn't look anything like the very

3209
01:55:07,189 --> 01:55:05,669
remember i mentioned that lecture where

3210
01:55:08,950 --> 01:55:07,199
i couldn't quite hear all of what was

3211
01:55:10,390 --> 01:55:08,960
being said i believe you mentioned that

3212
01:55:12,709 --> 01:55:10,400
you were studying physical evidence of

3213
01:55:14,870 --> 01:55:12,719
purgatory a burnt hand i believe i'm not

3214
01:55:16,629 --> 01:55:14,880
right yeah yeah can you elaborate on

3215
01:55:19,350 --> 01:55:16,639
that and then also perhaps the physical

3216
01:55:20,950 --> 01:55:19,360
evidence of heaven

3217
01:55:23,189 --> 01:55:20,960
okay so the physical evidence of

3218
01:55:24,950 --> 01:55:23,199
purgatory i'm not saying it's actually

3219
01:55:27,589 --> 01:55:24,960
physical evidence of purgatory what i'm

3220
01:55:30,390 --> 01:55:27,599
saying is that people have this is what

3221
01:55:33,430 --> 01:55:30,400
the belief structure is is that you know

3222
01:55:35,270 --> 01:55:33,440
in order to create belief in purgatory

3223
01:55:37,669 --> 01:55:35,280
there was a priest in the 1800s in

3224
01:55:40,390 --> 01:55:37,679
france who decided what he needed to do

3225
01:55:42,149 --> 01:55:40,400
was collect as much evidence for

3226
01:55:44,310 --> 01:55:42,159
purgatory as he could

3227
01:55:46,310 --> 01:55:44,320
so he went around all of europe and he

3228
01:55:48,629 --> 01:55:46,320
gathered this and now it's in a museum

3229
01:55:50,390 --> 01:55:48,639
called the purgatory museum in rome and

3230
01:55:53,589 --> 01:55:50,400
you can actually go online and check it

3231
01:55:55,430 --> 01:55:53,599
out okay and what this museum is i mean

3232
01:55:56,950 --> 01:55:55,440
a lot of it doesn't look like like good

3233
01:55:58,870 --> 01:55:56,960
evidence to me let's put it that way i'm

3234
01:56:01,669 --> 01:55:58,880
not convinced but

3235
01:56:03,830 --> 01:56:01,679
it's what people believe to be evidence

3236
01:56:06,390 --> 01:56:03,840
of burning souls in purgatory like a

3237
01:56:08,790 --> 01:56:06,400
hand on a bible and you see the kind of

3238
01:56:11,589 --> 01:56:08,800
the the burnt print handprint on the

3239
01:56:13,750 --> 01:56:11,599
bible and things like that so i don't

3240
01:56:16,709 --> 01:56:13,760
think that i mean you know so when we

3241
01:56:18,629 --> 01:56:16,719
look at so let's take and let's use this

3242
01:56:21,669 --> 01:56:18,639
as an example of doing religious studies

3243
01:56:23,990 --> 01:56:21,679
so you take that and you say okay the

3244
01:56:26,629 --> 01:56:24,000
impetus to try to prove something that

3245
01:56:29,270 --> 01:56:26,639
we cannot see i've even said this before

3246
01:56:31,510 --> 01:56:29,280
in a lecture it looks a lot like what's

3247
01:56:33,109 --> 01:56:31,520
going on with ufo communities right now

3248
01:56:35,350 --> 01:56:33,119
so the ufo community in the united

3249
01:56:38,070 --> 01:56:35,360
states is trying to prove that ufos

3250
01:56:40,229 --> 01:56:38,080
exist by taking this debris that

3251
01:56:42,790 --> 01:56:40,239
strangely enough i was partially

3252
01:56:44,950 --> 01:56:42,800
responsible for you know getting

3253
01:56:46,709 --> 01:56:44,960
and at least for some of it and now

3254
01:56:47,990 --> 01:56:46,719
they're doing analysis on it when i say

3255
01:56:49,830 --> 01:56:48,000
they i'm talking about scientists

3256
01:56:51,990 --> 01:56:49,840
affiliated with these programs

3257
01:56:54,470 --> 01:56:52,000
and they're saying yes we have this well

3258
01:56:57,430 --> 01:56:54,480
i would be really careful with readily

3259
01:56:59,030 --> 01:56:57,440
believing that because first you really

3260
01:57:00,470 --> 01:56:59,040
want to really really believe it i think

3261
01:57:02,790 --> 01:57:00,480
a lot of people really want to believe

3262
01:57:04,790 --> 01:57:02,800
it and i don't know why but there's that

3263
01:57:06,870 --> 01:57:04,800
it's very similar to what was going on

3264
01:57:09,430 --> 01:57:06,880
in the 1800s with trying to prove

3265
01:57:11,189 --> 01:57:09,440
purgatory was real

3266
01:57:18,550 --> 01:57:11,199
right

3267
01:57:20,390 --> 01:57:18,560
book too it's also is finding the

3268
01:57:21,750 --> 01:57:20,400
similarities between religion and then

3269
01:57:24,070 --> 01:57:21,760
the ufo

3270
01:57:25,270 --> 01:57:24,080
phenomenon or you or ufology and so on

3271
01:57:27,750 --> 01:57:25,280
and so

3272
01:57:28,950 --> 01:57:27,760
one of the advantages of calling some

3273
01:57:35,669 --> 01:57:28,960
field

3274
01:57:38,390 --> 01:57:35,679
what i'm asking is what does calling

3275
01:57:40,149 --> 01:57:38,400
ufos or ufology or whatever it may be

3276
01:57:41,830 --> 01:57:40,159
what does calling it religion

3277
01:57:42,870 --> 01:57:41,840
quote-unquote allow that wasn't there

3278
01:57:45,109 --> 01:57:42,880
before

3279
01:57:46,470 --> 01:57:45,119
i can give you an example

3280
01:57:48,470 --> 01:57:46,480
no you can give an example those are

3281
01:57:50,310 --> 01:57:48,480
always okay so let's say there's some

3282
01:57:52,149 --> 01:57:50,320
class of objects or people or practices

3283
01:57:53,990 --> 01:57:52,159
like veganism or architecture or car

3284
01:57:56,470 --> 01:57:54,000
driving let's just take architecture if

3285
01:57:58,390 --> 01:57:56,480
i was to say architecture's mathematics

3286
01:58:00,310 --> 01:57:58,400
that opens up that's uh maybe three

3287
01:58:01,990 --> 01:58:00,320
aspects so one would be

3288
01:58:04,310 --> 01:58:02,000
you can now use mathematical tools to

3289
01:58:05,830 --> 01:58:04,320
analyze architecture and then the number

3290
01:58:09,430 --> 01:58:05,840
two would be the vice versa so you can

3291
01:58:11,510 --> 01:58:09,440
now use architecture to help

3292
01:58:12,790 --> 01:58:11,520
innovations in math and then number

3293
01:58:14,070 --> 01:58:12,800
three would be

3294
01:58:15,430 --> 01:58:14,080
to

3295
01:58:18,229 --> 01:58:15,440
this is more of a social effect it would

3296
01:58:20,470 --> 01:58:18,239
have it would elevate or depreciate

3297
01:58:21,990 --> 01:58:20,480
the the field that's being compared so

3298
01:58:23,669 --> 01:58:22,000
in this case it may be a neutral to

3299
01:58:25,510 --> 01:58:23,679
positive result

3300
01:58:27,430 --> 01:58:25,520
so people would now view architecture

3301
01:58:29,669 --> 01:58:27,440
either the same or a bit more positively

3302
01:58:31,589 --> 01:58:29,679
because the general public has a neutral

3303
01:58:33,189 --> 01:58:31,599
to positive view of mathematics however

3304
01:58:35,350 --> 01:58:33,199
if i was to make a comparison to say

3305
01:58:37,030 --> 01:58:35,360
architecture is like garbage well then

3306
01:58:38,709 --> 01:58:37,040
that would depreciate people's view of

3307
01:58:39,830 --> 01:58:38,719
architecture

3308
01:58:41,589 --> 01:58:39,840
okay so

3309
01:58:43,189 --> 01:58:41,599
calling something by something else's

3310
01:58:44,950 --> 01:58:43,199
name

3311
01:58:46,470 --> 01:58:44,960
it has certain advantages it allows for

3312
01:58:49,589 --> 01:58:46,480
something so what does

3313
01:58:51,589 --> 01:58:49,599
calling ufos or ufology religion allow

3314
01:58:53,910 --> 01:58:51,599
for that wasn't there before

3315
01:58:55,510 --> 01:58:53,920
okay that's a great question and i don't

3316
01:58:57,350 --> 01:58:55,520
think i'm making that move actually what

3317
01:58:58,790 --> 01:58:57,360
i'm doing and i said i do this by

3318
01:59:01,350 --> 01:58:58,800
calling the book

3319
01:59:02,470 --> 01:59:01,360
uh american cosmic religion

3320
01:59:05,589 --> 01:59:02,480
technology

3321
01:59:07,750 --> 01:59:05,599
and ufos right and i hold those three

3322
01:59:08,870 --> 01:59:07,760
things together

3323
01:59:10,709 --> 01:59:08,880
in

3324
01:59:13,750 --> 01:59:10,719
they simultaneously

3325
01:59:16,390 --> 01:59:13,760
engage each other okay so i'm doing i

3326
01:59:18,790 --> 01:59:16,400
think i'm doing two things i'm using

3327
01:59:21,510 --> 01:59:18,800
religion the tools of religion to study

3328
01:59:23,109 --> 01:59:21,520
the development of belief in ufos and i

3329
01:59:23,990 --> 01:59:23,119
think that that's a good thing to do

3330
01:59:25,910 --> 01:59:24,000
because

3331
01:59:28,229 --> 01:59:25,920
people in religious studies we don't

3332
01:59:31,109 --> 01:59:28,239
have to say ufos exist or don't exist we

3333
01:59:34,709 --> 01:59:31,119
can study it as a belief system okay

3334
01:59:37,350 --> 01:59:34,719
but i'm also using ufos as a way to push

3335
01:59:39,430 --> 01:59:37,360
the method methodological boundaries of

3336
01:59:41,510 --> 01:59:39,440
religious studies because religious

3337
01:59:42,870 --> 01:59:41,520
studies like that's interesting yeah

3338
01:59:45,830 --> 01:59:42,880
because religious studies likes to

3339
01:59:47,589 --> 01:59:45,840
reduce things just to social effects and

3340
01:59:50,629 --> 01:59:47,599
what i'm saying here is

3341
01:59:53,270 --> 01:59:50,639
we have a belief system that is now

3342
01:59:54,870 --> 01:59:53,280
corroborating itself through science and

3343
01:59:58,629 --> 01:59:54,880
that is something we've never seen

3344
02:00:00,229 --> 01:59:58,639
before no other no other religion um

3345
02:00:03,189 --> 02:00:00,239
christianity

3346
02:00:05,669 --> 02:00:03,199
islam buddhism no other religion has

3347
02:00:08,149 --> 02:00:05,679
actually said we are scient we can

3348
02:00:09,430 --> 02:00:08,159
corroborate ourselves through science

3349
02:00:11,830 --> 02:00:09,440
right but

3350
02:00:13,750 --> 02:00:11,840
ufology has or is doing it at this

3351
02:00:15,750 --> 02:00:13,760
moment in time and that's what i'm

3352
02:00:17,270 --> 02:00:15,760
saying to religious studies i'm saying

3353
02:00:19,109 --> 02:00:17,280
maybe we should take a look at this

3354
02:00:21,109 --> 02:00:19,119
because this is really interesting you

3355
02:00:23,270 --> 02:00:21,119
know and i wish more people actually

3356
02:00:26,470 --> 02:00:23,280
more people are now that you know the

3357
02:00:28,229 --> 02:00:26,480
the pentagon report came out in 2021 and

3358
02:00:29,910 --> 02:00:28,239
a lot of people in my field are looking

3359
02:00:31,910 --> 02:00:29,920
at ufos in a completely different way

3360
02:00:35,990 --> 02:00:31,920
now and um

3361
02:00:40,390 --> 02:00:36,790
and

3362
02:00:42,149 --> 02:00:40,400
also you're not trying to dismiss or

3363
02:00:43,990 --> 02:00:42,159
make people disregard

3364
02:00:45,750 --> 02:00:44,000
ufos by labeling them as religion

3365
02:00:47,350 --> 02:00:45,760
because you have a nuanced view of

3366
02:00:49,430 --> 02:00:47,360
religion coming from religion studies

3367
02:00:51,510 --> 02:00:49,440
the reason i'm making that clear is that

3368
02:00:52,790 --> 02:00:51,520
when some people say well ai will kill

3369
02:00:54,070 --> 02:00:52,800
us and then someone else can say that's

3370
02:00:56,390 --> 02:00:54,080
like religion because the ai is like the

3371
02:00:58,470 --> 02:00:56,400
devil or vaccine hesitancy or acceptance

3372
02:01:00,390 --> 02:00:58,480
is that's like religion or whichever

3373
02:01:01,990 --> 02:01:00,400
route you want to take that usually is a

3374
02:01:04,149 --> 02:01:02,000
way of dismissing it saying yeah that's

3375
02:01:06,229 --> 02:01:04,159
just another religion but you're not the

3376
02:01:08,629 --> 02:01:06,239
suggestion under the underneath by this

3377
02:01:10,629 --> 02:01:08,639
it's implicit that it's it's it's simply

3378
02:01:12,470 --> 02:01:10,639
not true look the ai is not like a devil

3379
02:01:14,229 --> 02:01:12,480
so i'm calling it a religion to dismiss

3380
02:01:17,750 --> 02:01:14,239
people who are being a bit hysterical

3381
02:01:20,229 --> 02:01:17,760
about that and and so on so you're

3382
02:01:22,470 --> 02:01:20,239
not calling it religion in order to get

3383
02:01:24,310 --> 02:01:22,480
people to dismiss it

3384
02:01:26,550 --> 02:01:24,320
no no no i would no i would never do

3385
02:01:27,990 --> 02:01:26,560
that i wouldn't call religion that in

3386
02:01:30,149 --> 02:01:28,000
order to get people to dismiss it

3387
02:01:31,030 --> 02:01:30,159
because it's not so i think people draw

3388
02:01:33,030 --> 02:01:31,040
men

3389
02:01:33,910 --> 02:01:33,040
yeah yeah and i think you know in my

3390
02:01:35,350 --> 02:01:33,920
field

3391
02:01:36,950 --> 02:01:35,360
there's a lot of work to do let's put it

3392
02:01:39,109 --> 02:01:36,960
that way because people have so many

3393
02:01:42,070 --> 02:01:39,119
misconceptions about religion you know

3394
02:01:43,990 --> 02:01:42,080
there's a i'm constantly doing that work

3395
02:01:47,589 --> 02:01:44,000
and it will never be done

3396
02:01:51,669 --> 02:01:49,430
who's the modern day heidegger who's

3397
02:01:53,910 --> 02:01:51,679
furthering heidegger's work

3398
02:01:55,669 --> 02:01:53,920
gosh let me think

3399
02:01:58,709 --> 02:01:55,679
um

3400
02:01:59,830 --> 02:01:58,719
i know there's object-oriented ontology

3401
02:02:01,750 --> 02:01:59,840
but i don't know

3402
02:02:03,109 --> 02:02:01,760
is that it

3403
02:02:08,629 --> 02:02:03,119
um

3404
02:02:10,390 --> 02:02:08,639
like social ontology is that what you're

3405
02:02:12,470 --> 02:02:10,400
talking about

3406
02:02:14,310 --> 02:02:12,480
no it's harman's work i don't remember

3407
02:02:16,070 --> 02:02:14,320
his name but no people i'm always

3408
02:02:17,669 --> 02:02:16,080
wondering like what are the modern what

3409
02:02:20,310 --> 02:02:17,679
are some examples of these modern

3410
02:02:22,310 --> 02:02:20,320
philosophers like a contour heidegger

3411
02:02:23,910 --> 02:02:22,320
i'm trying to think of some modern

3412
02:02:26,070 --> 02:02:23,920
philosophers whose

3413
02:02:28,629 --> 02:02:26,080
work has

3414
02:02:31,350 --> 02:02:28,639
um i mean she's not modern in the sense

3415
02:02:32,629 --> 02:02:31,360
that her work was in the 70s but iris

3416
02:02:34,950 --> 02:02:32,639
murdoch's work

3417
02:02:35,830 --> 02:02:34,960
i think is really interesting

3418
02:02:38,390 --> 02:02:35,840
um

3419
02:02:40,229 --> 02:02:38,400
from a heidigarian perspective because

3420
02:02:42,149 --> 02:02:40,239
it seems to me that she's also going

3421
02:02:44,229 --> 02:02:42,159
back to a socratic

3422
02:02:46,390 --> 02:02:44,239
like understanding

3423
02:02:49,430 --> 02:02:46,400
of

3424
02:02:51,350 --> 02:02:49,440
basically inputting mysticism within

3425
02:02:53,270 --> 02:02:51,360
questioning

3426
02:02:55,669 --> 02:02:53,280
and um she's also talking about moral

3427
02:02:57,270 --> 02:02:55,679
realism

3428
02:02:59,669 --> 02:02:57,280
so there are things that are actually

3429
02:03:01,510 --> 02:02:59,679
morally objective

3430
02:03:03,750 --> 02:03:01,520
yeah that's that's that's an unpopular

3431
02:03:05,990 --> 02:03:03,760
opinion yeah it is very unpopular but

3432
02:03:07,430 --> 02:03:06,000
i'm attracted to it right now

3433
02:03:08,870 --> 02:03:07,440
great well i happen to like the

3434
02:03:10,629 --> 02:03:08,880
unpopular opinions personally i find

3435
02:03:11,830 --> 02:03:10,639
them more interesting i think that i'm i

3436
02:03:13,510 --> 02:03:11,840
just pretty much play the counter

3437
02:03:14,870 --> 02:03:13,520
position

3438
02:03:16,310 --> 02:03:14,880
which is not great because it means my

3439
02:03:18,629 --> 02:03:16,320
views aren't mine mine are just counter

3440
02:03:20,790 --> 02:03:18,639
of whatever exists but i

3441
02:03:23,510 --> 02:03:20,800
i'm just so attracted to

3442
02:03:24,870 --> 02:03:23,520
to feeling like what's happening is not

3443
02:03:26,470 --> 02:03:24,880
correct especially the people who

3444
02:03:28,470 --> 02:03:26,480
adamantly say that their belief is

3445
02:03:29,910 --> 02:03:28,480
correct i just think how do you know how

3446
02:03:30,629 --> 02:03:29,920
do you know and it

3447
02:03:36,790 --> 02:03:30,639
it

3448
02:03:40,830 --> 02:03:39,189
so what was carl jung's opinions on ufos

3449
02:03:43,030 --> 02:03:40,840
i know he had a whole book on

3450
02:03:44,470 --> 02:03:43,040
ufos he did yeah

3451
02:03:45,750 --> 02:03:44,480
um

3452
02:03:48,149 --> 02:03:45,760
i forgot the name of it but it has

3453
02:03:50,390 --> 02:03:48,159
flying saucers in the oh it's called the

3454
02:03:51,510 --> 02:03:50,400
modern flying saucers the modern myth in

3455
02:03:52,390 --> 02:03:51,520
the sky

3456
02:03:55,750 --> 02:03:52,400
okay

3457
02:03:57,270 --> 02:03:55,760
and um his views changed so at first he

3458
02:04:00,709 --> 02:03:57,280
viewed this as

3459
02:04:03,030 --> 02:04:00,719
uh he viewed ufos as an archetype like

3460
02:04:03,910 --> 02:04:03,040
this new archetype that he was figuring

3461
02:04:05,510 --> 02:04:03,920
out

3462
02:04:07,669 --> 02:04:05,520
but then he met a lot of people in the

3463
02:04:09,830 --> 02:04:07,679
government who actually had physical

3464
02:04:11,910 --> 02:04:09,840
they showed him radar reports and things

3465
02:04:14,149 --> 02:04:11,920
like that and so then he was like wow

3466
02:04:16,790 --> 02:04:14,159
and then he had friends who he found to

3467
02:04:19,510 --> 02:04:16,800
be credible tell him about their own

3468
02:04:21,830 --> 02:04:19,520
experiences of seeing ufos so then he

3469
02:04:23,990 --> 02:04:21,840
started to realize that this

3470
02:04:26,070 --> 02:04:24,000
idea of an archetype actually had a

3471
02:04:27,669 --> 02:04:26,080
physical component to it

3472
02:04:30,629 --> 02:04:27,679
and then the last thing he wrote about

3473
02:04:32,950 --> 02:04:30,639
it was a letter where he basically said

3474
02:04:34,870 --> 02:04:32,960
i think he honestly didn't know kurt

3475
02:04:36,550 --> 02:04:34,880
because i i mean if you read it because

3476
02:04:38,390 --> 02:04:36,560
i tried to read everything that i could

3477
02:04:41,030 --> 02:04:38,400
possibly get when i was writing american

3478
02:04:42,709 --> 02:04:41,040
cosmic that carl jung said about ufos

3479
02:04:44,310 --> 02:04:42,719
and what i came up with was that he

3480
02:04:46,870 --> 02:04:44,320
changed his mind a couple of different

3481
02:04:48,070 --> 02:04:46,880
times but the last thing he thought was

3482
02:04:49,270 --> 02:04:48,080
that

3483
02:04:51,030 --> 02:04:49,280
and i think you could see it in this

3484
02:04:53,109 --> 02:04:51,040
letter and i think i've cited somewhere

3485
02:04:55,669 --> 02:04:53,119
in my book is basically

3486
02:04:58,070 --> 02:04:55,679
yeah he says it's an archetype but it's

3487
02:05:00,229 --> 02:04:58,080
an archetype that has physical qualities

3488
02:05:01,109 --> 02:05:00,239
to it which i thought was really weird

3489
02:05:03,510 --> 02:05:01,119
yeah

3490
02:05:05,350 --> 02:05:03,520
that makes it an example in the

3491
02:05:07,430 --> 02:05:05,360
pantheon of archetypes

3492
02:05:08,950 --> 02:05:07,440
yeah so they have physical components so

3493
02:05:10,149 --> 02:05:08,960
much as well they are physical and so

3494
02:05:11,430 --> 02:05:10,159
much as they interact with ourselves and

3495
02:05:13,430 --> 02:05:11,440
we interact with the physical world but

3496
02:05:15,109 --> 02:05:13,440
not themselves

3497
02:05:17,830 --> 02:05:15,119
yes so this is interesting so let's talk

3498
02:05:20,550 --> 02:05:17,840
about this for a second okay so right

3499
02:05:22,709 --> 02:05:20,560
now i'm looking at um there's a person

3500
02:05:23,910 --> 02:05:22,719
and again i will have to send you

3501
02:05:25,990 --> 02:05:23,920
because i like to give credit where

3502
02:05:27,669 --> 02:05:26,000
credit is due but unfortunately i read

3503
02:05:30,390 --> 02:05:27,679
so much stuff i forget the names of

3504
02:05:31,750 --> 02:05:30,400
people but this is a person who calls

3505
02:05:34,310 --> 02:05:31,760
himself

3506
02:05:36,950 --> 02:05:34,320
a story technologist so he does like

3507
02:05:40,229 --> 02:05:36,960
he's a tech he says that um he does the

3508
02:05:42,950 --> 02:05:40,239
history of stories and he looks he uses

3509
02:05:45,990 --> 02:05:42,960
basically tons and tons of data just to

3510
02:05:48,709 --> 02:05:46,000
sh break down different stories and to

3511
02:05:50,709 --> 02:05:48,719
show how they actually like what they do

3512
02:05:53,430 --> 02:05:50,719
to our brains okay

3513
02:05:54,870 --> 02:05:53,440
and i'll send you a link to his work but

3514
02:05:56,950 --> 02:05:54,880
what i think is really interesting is i

3515
02:05:59,589 --> 02:05:56,960
agree with him that there was a point in

3516
02:06:02,229 --> 02:05:59,599
time when writing became a technology

3517
02:06:04,070 --> 02:06:02,239
right and so with writing stories were

3518
02:06:05,990 --> 02:06:04,080
able to be written down and so people

3519
02:06:07,750 --> 02:06:06,000
like plato and socrates said well

3520
02:06:09,669 --> 02:06:07,760
there's a new technology and like

3521
02:06:12,149 --> 02:06:09,679
aristotle did an analysis of the

3522
02:06:14,070 --> 02:06:12,159
technology of stories and he said these

3523
02:06:15,750 --> 02:06:14,080
are you know in a sense that's what carl

3524
02:06:18,550 --> 02:06:15,760
jung was doing when he was talking about

3525
02:06:20,709 --> 02:06:18,560
archetypes so he's talking about kind of

3526
02:06:22,550 --> 02:06:20,719
the elements that create these stories

3527
02:06:23,990 --> 02:06:22,560
that get told from culture and culture

3528
02:06:26,870 --> 02:06:24,000
again and again and again like the

3529
02:06:29,990 --> 02:06:26,880
hero's journey okay so this kind of this

3530
02:06:31,350 --> 02:06:30,000
mythine you know um

3531
02:06:33,990 --> 02:06:31,360
what did you call it

3532
02:06:35,990 --> 02:06:34,000
yeah that's levi strauss called it

3533
02:06:37,910 --> 02:06:36,000
it wasn't a myth because it was more

3534
02:06:40,390 --> 02:06:37,920
than a myth it was actually the the very

3535
02:06:41,750 --> 02:06:40,400
unit that created the different myths

3536
02:06:46,069 --> 02:06:41,760
right

3537
02:06:49,030 --> 02:06:46,079
stories as technology when i went back

3538
02:06:52,069 --> 02:06:49,040
to american cosmic and in order to to

3539
02:06:55,350 --> 02:06:52,079
try to push the method in my field i had

3540
02:06:57,669 --> 02:06:55,360
to embody and inhabit what i called a

3541
02:06:59,910 --> 02:06:57,679
myth which was the myth of prometheus i

3542
02:07:01,669 --> 02:06:59,920
had to actually live it and i was super

3543
02:07:04,550 --> 02:07:01,679
uncomfortable doing that

3544
02:07:07,350 --> 02:07:04,560
and then after that what happened was

3545
02:07:08,629 --> 02:07:07,360
in my next book i've morphed into a new

3546
02:07:16,069 --> 02:07:08,639
myth

3547
02:07:18,950 --> 02:07:16,079
cave which is by the way not called an

3548
02:07:21,270 --> 02:07:18,960
allegory that was a later imputation so

3549
02:07:23,109 --> 02:07:21,280
this idea of the cave which by the way

3550
02:07:25,669 --> 02:07:23,119
we see it again and again and again with

3551
02:07:27,510 --> 02:07:25,679
like the truman show or the matrix you

3552
02:07:29,669 --> 02:07:27,520
know it gets played out in so many

3553
02:07:31,990 --> 02:07:29,679
different ways in our culture right now

3554
02:07:33,990 --> 02:07:32,000
um that we live in a simulation the

3555
02:07:37,910 --> 02:07:34,000
simulation hypothesis is basically

3556
02:07:40,069 --> 02:07:37,920
another iteration of this mythine okay

3557
02:07:41,830 --> 02:07:40,079
yeah so that's the that's the next

3558
02:07:43,589 --> 02:07:41,840
that's what i it's almost as if i had to

3559
02:07:46,390 --> 02:07:43,599
go through the promethean myth in order

3560
02:07:50,229 --> 02:07:46,400
to get to the allegory of the cave myth

3561
02:07:52,629 --> 02:07:50,239
and inhabit that and understand it

3562
02:07:54,870 --> 02:07:52,639
in order to

3563
02:07:57,030 --> 02:07:54,880
write about it does this mean that

3564
02:07:57,990 --> 02:07:57,040
you've managed to get out of the cave

3565
02:08:00,790 --> 02:07:58,000
what do you mean when you say you're

3566
02:08:02,629 --> 02:08:00,800
living that myth yeah okay so

3567
02:08:04,790 --> 02:08:02,639
i feel like after i wrote american

3568
02:08:06,790 --> 02:08:04,800
cosmic you know in the myth do you know

3569
02:08:09,109 --> 02:08:06,800
the myth

3570
02:08:10,950 --> 02:08:09,119
so my understanding of the cave

3571
02:08:13,910 --> 02:08:10,960
myth allegory whatever one wants to call

3572
02:08:15,430 --> 02:08:13,920
it is that there are a set of people and

3573
02:08:17,750 --> 02:08:15,440
they're tied up and they're looking at

3574
02:08:19,510 --> 02:08:17,760
the wall and on the wall or images which

3575
02:08:20,870 --> 02:08:19,520
are atomizations because they're shadows

3576
02:08:22,709 --> 02:08:20,880
from something else well we don't know

3577
02:08:25,750 --> 02:08:22,719
that they don't know that they mistaken

3578
02:08:27,750 --> 02:08:25,760
the wall the cave wall for quote-unquote

3579
02:08:29,430 --> 02:08:27,760
reality until one gets loose and then

3580
02:08:31,830 --> 02:08:29,440
sees that

3581
02:08:35,030 --> 02:08:31,840
these are mere projections of something

3582
02:08:36,629 --> 02:08:35,040
else and this outside world is the true

3583
02:08:37,430 --> 02:08:36,639
quote-unquote reality

3584
02:08:38,950 --> 02:08:37,440
and

3585
02:08:42,550 --> 02:08:38,960
then people have forgotten about the

3586
02:08:44,069 --> 02:08:42,560
third part which is that the sun was too

3587
02:08:45,030 --> 02:08:44,079
blinding

3588
02:08:48,790 --> 02:08:45,040
and

3589
02:08:50,470 --> 02:08:48,800
they have to retreat into the darkness

3590
02:08:52,629 --> 02:08:50,480
essentially that there exists such a

3591
02:08:54,790 --> 02:08:52,639
thing as too much

3592
02:08:57,270 --> 02:08:54,800
truth

3593
02:08:59,350 --> 02:08:57,280
and also that they tell people and many

3594
02:09:01,430 --> 02:08:59,360
people consider them to be

3595
02:09:03,910 --> 02:09:01,440
de-cerebrate and insensate much like

3596
02:09:04,950 --> 02:09:03,920
right now with people considering those

3597
02:09:07,910 --> 02:09:04,960
who

3598
02:09:09,750 --> 02:09:07,920
well if you have any belief that is

3599
02:09:10,950 --> 02:09:09,760
borderline quote-unquote woo

3600
02:09:13,830 --> 02:09:10,960
then

3601
02:09:15,750 --> 02:09:13,840
that's what one is

3602
02:09:19,350 --> 02:09:15,760
labeled yeah so okay so this is that's

3603
02:09:21,030 --> 02:09:19,360
generally good good job okay so

3604
02:09:23,189 --> 02:09:21,040
there are two things though that i think

3605
02:09:25,350 --> 02:09:23,199
that we have to concentrate on

3606
02:09:27,510 --> 02:09:25,360
when i finished american cosmic i was

3607
02:09:29,510 --> 02:09:27,520
like kind of obsessed with the k the

3608
02:09:31,030 --> 02:09:29,520
cave and so i went back and i read

3609
02:09:33,030 --> 02:09:31,040
different versions of it you know

3610
02:09:34,709 --> 02:09:33,040
translations and everything which then i

3611
02:09:36,550 --> 02:09:34,719
realized wait a minute it's not actually

3612
02:09:38,629 --> 02:09:36,560
an allegory and wait a minute it's in a

3613
02:09:41,030 --> 02:09:38,639
book about politics

3614
02:09:42,390 --> 02:09:41,040
and so i thought this was strange and i

3615
02:09:44,390 --> 02:09:42,400
also thought this

3616
02:09:45,669 --> 02:09:44,400
i thought who are the people that tie us

3617
02:09:47,430 --> 02:09:45,679
up

3618
02:09:49,109 --> 02:09:47,440
you know because and i asked a lot of my

3619
02:09:50,709 --> 02:09:49,119
friends who happen to be philosophers i

3620
02:09:53,350 --> 02:09:50,719
said have you ever thought about the

3621
02:09:55,189 --> 02:09:53,360
people who tied us up in the cave and

3622
02:09:57,270 --> 02:09:55,199
they said oh no no no it's just an

3623
02:10:00,310 --> 02:09:57,280
allegory and i was like i don't think so

3624
02:10:02,310 --> 02:10:00,320
i think that people actually tied us off

3625
02:10:04,790 --> 02:10:02,320
and in fact because of my experience

3626
02:10:07,750 --> 02:10:04,800
with american cosmic i believe that

3627
02:10:09,589 --> 02:10:07,760
people tied us up right and so i then

3628
02:10:11,430 --> 02:10:09,599
have wanted to tell people

3629
02:10:13,750 --> 02:10:11,440
yeah i think that people tied us up i

3630
02:10:15,750 --> 02:10:13,760
mean in the cave people tied us up i

3631
02:10:18,390 --> 02:10:15,760
know what i'm saying is you believe now

3632
02:10:20,390 --> 02:10:18,400
that people tied us up or yeah or yeah

3633
02:10:22,470 --> 02:10:20,400
indicating that the extraterrestrials or

3634
02:10:24,550 --> 02:10:22,480
whatever no no no i think that we're

3635
02:10:25,910 --> 02:10:24,560
doing it for each other we're you know

3636
02:10:27,510 --> 02:10:25,920
we're misinforming each other like

3637
02:10:29,750 --> 02:10:27,520
there's obviously this misinformation

3638
02:10:31,270 --> 02:10:29,760
campaign that happens for ufos let's

3639
02:10:33,350 --> 02:10:31,280
just say that happened we know it

3640
02:10:35,910 --> 02:10:33,360
happened yeah so people intentionally

3641
02:10:37,830 --> 02:10:35,920
said this is what's happening over here

3642
02:10:40,069 --> 02:10:37,840
what you see is real but all of a sudden

3643
02:10:42,390 --> 02:10:40,079
we're like whoa what i saw wasn't real

3644
02:10:44,709 --> 02:10:42,400
and we and so okay so i became kind of

3645
02:10:47,350 --> 02:10:44,719
obsessed with that and trying to get my

3646
02:10:49,189 --> 02:10:47,360
friends who are in philosophy to admit

3647
02:10:51,669 --> 02:10:49,199
that people tied us up

3648
02:10:54,870 --> 02:10:51,679
and then i read it so many times that i

3649
02:10:57,189 --> 02:10:54,880
realized that i was that person who was

3650
02:10:58,950 --> 02:10:57,199
basically trying to convince people and

3651
02:11:00,709 --> 02:10:58,960
that what happens is you have to

3652
02:11:03,030 --> 02:11:00,719
basically just leave the cave

3653
02:11:05,510 --> 02:11:03,040
and but there's something at the end of

3654
02:11:06,950 --> 02:11:05,520
the that uh the cave allegory i'm just

3655
02:11:09,510 --> 02:11:06,960
going to call an allegory since people

3656
02:11:10,550 --> 02:11:09,520
have called it that but it's not um at

3657
02:11:12,310 --> 02:11:10,560
the end

3658
02:11:14,470 --> 02:11:12,320
that person who escapes the cave and

3659
02:11:15,669 --> 02:11:14,480
then goes back and tries to tell people

3660
02:11:17,270 --> 02:11:15,679
that they're in the cave and then they

3661
02:11:19,189 --> 02:11:17,280
don't believe that person and then a

3662
02:11:21,030 --> 02:11:19,199
person spends a lot of time

3663
02:11:22,390 --> 02:11:21,040
you know precious time basically saying

3664
02:11:23,750 --> 02:11:22,400
get out of the cave come on i'll help

3665
02:11:26,069 --> 02:11:23,760
you but

3666
02:11:28,069 --> 02:11:26,079
they don't and they think you're crazy

3667
02:11:29,990 --> 02:11:28,079
and i thought people think i'm crazy and

3668
02:11:32,390 --> 02:11:30,000
i said i'm just going to stop because

3669
02:11:34,870 --> 02:11:32,400
that's who i am in this right now in

3670
02:11:37,510 --> 02:11:34,880
this in this myth i am that crazy person

3671
02:11:39,350 --> 02:11:37,520
he's basically telling people

3672
02:11:42,069 --> 02:11:39,360
we got tied up everyone let's get out of

3673
02:11:44,390 --> 02:11:42,079
the cave well the the next step

3674
02:11:47,189 --> 02:11:44,400
is is what my book is going to be about

3675
02:11:50,069 --> 02:11:47,199
the next step is the step

3676
02:11:51,350 --> 02:11:50,079
of where that person leaves the cave and

3677
02:11:53,430 --> 02:11:51,360
then what they do

3678
02:11:55,830 --> 02:11:53,440
because they don't just leave the cave

3679
02:11:58,709 --> 02:11:55,840
kurt they actually engage in something

3680
02:12:00,709 --> 02:11:58,719
and plato calls it a craft or socrates

3681
02:12:02,950 --> 02:12:00,719
does plato's the one who's writing it

3682
02:12:03,669 --> 02:12:02,960
but socrates calls it a craft not a not

3683
02:12:18,950 --> 02:12:03,679
a

3684
02:12:21,030 --> 02:12:18,960
forgot

3685
02:12:23,189 --> 02:12:21,040
like we've been kind of hypnotized by

3686
02:12:25,910 --> 02:12:23,199
the we are in a cave thing

3687
02:12:27,910 --> 02:12:25,920
and we forgot really what he was trying

3688
02:12:31,750 --> 02:12:27,920
to tell us and so i'm going to go back

3689
02:12:33,669 --> 02:12:31,760
and and kind of um do a reading of that

3690
02:12:36,470 --> 02:12:33,679
let me recount it once more so they see

3691
02:12:39,030 --> 02:12:36,480
the shadows a guy or girl comes out

3692
02:12:40,470 --> 02:12:39,040
notices quote unquote reality comes back

3693
02:12:43,270 --> 02:12:40,480
tries to tell people

3694
02:12:44,870 --> 02:12:43,280
and they don't believe him or her then

3695
02:12:49,189 --> 02:12:44,880
this person

3696
02:12:51,030 --> 02:12:49,199
leaves to do a craft

3697
02:12:52,390 --> 02:12:51,040
what is meant by that

3698
02:12:53,430 --> 02:12:52,400
in the book i mean sorry not in your

3699
02:12:56,069 --> 02:12:53,440
book necessarily if you don't want to

3700
02:12:59,189 --> 02:12:56,079
give it away but in the allegory

3701
02:13:01,910 --> 02:12:59,199
allegory yeah so that's the question

3702
02:13:04,229 --> 02:13:01,920
what is meant by that so that's i think

3703
02:13:06,709 --> 02:13:04,239
the the thing we need to ask so what

3704
02:13:08,870 --> 02:13:06,719
happens is that they go out of the cave

3705
02:13:11,030 --> 02:13:08,880
and then he's talking to

3706
02:13:12,950 --> 02:13:11,040
i think it's his brother right or his

3707
02:13:15,270 --> 02:13:12,960
brother-in-law or something so

3708
02:13:17,189 --> 02:13:15,280
in the you know when plato recounts it

3709
02:13:19,430 --> 02:13:17,199
socrates is talking to somebody and he

3710
02:13:20,390 --> 02:13:19,440
basically says and wouldn't it be the

3711
02:13:23,270 --> 02:13:20,400
case

3712
02:13:26,229 --> 02:13:23,280
that we engage in this

3713
02:13:28,629 --> 02:13:26,239
this dialogue or dialectic

3714
02:13:30,709 --> 02:13:28,639
and that this is a craft and that we

3715
02:13:33,830 --> 02:13:30,719
this is what we need to do it's almost

3716
02:13:35,990 --> 02:13:33,840
like if you want to know the answer for

3717
02:13:40,310 --> 02:13:36,000
how to stay out of the cave or the

3718
02:13:45,589 --> 02:13:43,189
to deal with the reality that we live in

3719
02:13:47,430 --> 02:13:45,599
is to engage in this craft

3720
02:13:50,229 --> 02:13:47,440
and that's what he's trying to tell us

3721
02:13:52,790 --> 02:13:50,239
and this happens to be in a book about

3722
02:13:55,270 --> 02:13:52,800
political philosophy

3723
02:13:57,430 --> 02:13:55,280
and i think that's really important

3724
02:13:59,990 --> 02:13:57,440
and i think that iris murdoch's book

3725
02:14:02,629 --> 02:14:00,000
called um

3726
02:14:04,790 --> 02:14:02,639
i think it's called the good

3727
02:14:06,229 --> 02:14:04,800
um

3728
02:14:07,990 --> 02:14:06,239
it's something to do with the good i

3729
02:14:10,550 --> 02:14:08,000
just read it

3730
02:14:12,790 --> 02:14:10,560
but it's an excellent um it's an

3731
02:14:15,189 --> 02:14:12,800
excellent take on this i think she gets

3732
02:14:21,189 --> 02:14:17,350
and the take is

3733
02:14:23,030 --> 02:14:21,199
that the good is to be political

3734
02:14:24,470 --> 02:14:23,040
i know the good is to engage in this

3735
02:14:27,589 --> 02:14:24,480
type of um

3736
02:14:30,229 --> 02:14:27,599
craft that that plato discusses and it's

3737
02:14:31,830 --> 02:14:30,239
an answer to the political

3738
02:14:34,470 --> 02:14:31,840
because you know in this talk you and i

3739
02:14:36,950 --> 02:14:34,480
have been talking about religion

3740
02:14:38,629 --> 02:14:36,960
democracy secularism you know we've been

3741
02:14:40,950 --> 02:14:38,639
talking about these different forms of

3742
02:14:43,109 --> 02:14:40,960
government and stuff and plato's

3743
02:14:45,109 --> 02:14:43,119
basically showing us something

3744
02:14:46,470 --> 02:14:45,119
and then heidegger believe it or not

3745
02:14:48,470 --> 02:14:46,480
gives back

3746
02:14:50,470 --> 02:14:48,480
and he tries to recreate that through

3747
02:14:53,589 --> 02:14:50,480
writing this philosophy where he

3748
02:14:57,830 --> 02:14:55,669
and so he's basically doing exactly the

3749
02:14:59,189 --> 02:14:57,840
craft

3750
02:15:02,149 --> 02:14:59,199
although i don't think he actually gets

3751
02:15:03,830 --> 02:15:02,159
it as much as iris murdock does

3752
02:15:06,149 --> 02:15:03,840
that so that's what's happening and

3753
02:15:08,470 --> 02:15:06,159
that's what our that's what our culture

3754
02:15:10,229 --> 02:15:08,480
right now we're stuck in the cave and we

3755
02:15:12,069 --> 02:15:10,239
just don't we just don't know how to get

3756
02:15:14,069 --> 02:15:12,079
out and i think that that's it because

3757
02:15:16,229 --> 02:15:14,079
it took me a mom it took me a while to

3758
02:15:17,270 --> 02:15:16,239
figure it out myself like what is he

3759
02:15:18,709 --> 02:15:17,280
saying

3760
02:15:20,790 --> 02:15:18,719
and then i had to read it you know how

3761
02:15:22,709 --> 02:15:20,800
you can read something so many times and

3762
02:15:24,229 --> 02:15:22,719
then finally you're like oh that's what

3763
02:15:26,069 --> 02:15:24,239
he's saying right

3764
02:15:27,910 --> 02:15:26,079
sometimes it takes a while to because

3765
02:15:30,310 --> 02:15:27,920
we've been so

3766
02:15:31,510 --> 02:15:30,320
programmed to read it a certain way but

3767
02:15:33,030 --> 02:15:31,520
actually i don't think that's the way

3768
02:15:35,990 --> 02:15:33,040
it's meant to be read at all the way

3769
02:15:38,069 --> 02:15:36,000
that we've been reading it

3770
02:15:40,709 --> 02:15:38,079
i was watching a talk of john verveigh's

3771
02:15:42,629 --> 02:15:40,719
on heidegger and john was saying in his

3772
02:15:44,149 --> 02:15:42,639
language so i'm going to use and this is

3773
02:15:45,669 --> 02:15:44,159
a bit esoteric but he was saying that

3774
02:15:47,589 --> 02:15:45,679
heidegger was stating that the whole

3775
02:15:49,669 --> 02:15:47,599
process of metaphysics for the past 2000

3776
02:15:50,950 --> 02:15:49,679
years is one of distancing we distance

3777
02:15:53,430 --> 02:15:50,960
ourselves from the

3778
02:15:55,430 --> 02:15:53,440
as a subject from the object and

3779
02:15:57,350 --> 02:15:55,440
this is perhaps a misframing and that we

3780
02:15:59,109 --> 02:15:57,360
shouldn't be seeking propositional

3781
02:16:01,270 --> 02:15:59,119
answers but instead participatory

3782
02:16:02,629 --> 02:16:01,280
answers so that is

3783
02:16:05,910 --> 02:16:02,639
that

3784
02:16:07,990 --> 02:16:05,920
it's a difficult i don't know how to

3785
02:16:10,709 --> 02:16:08,000
okay let me think

3786
02:16:12,149 --> 02:16:10,719
so a a dance is participatory so there's

3787
02:16:14,310 --> 02:16:12,159
a form of knowledge associated with

3788
02:16:16,149 --> 02:16:14,320
dancing that's not propositional it's

3789
02:16:18,950 --> 02:16:16,159
not writing and then it's not logical

3790
02:16:21,430 --> 02:16:18,960
for safe 100 well that's procedural as

3791
02:16:22,229 --> 02:16:21,440
well so there's another form of so are

3792
02:16:24,149 --> 02:16:22,239
you

3793
02:16:25,830 --> 02:16:24,159
suggesting that

3794
02:16:27,030 --> 02:16:25,840
perhaps what's happened is that we've

3795
02:16:28,229 --> 02:16:27,040
gotten lost

3796
02:16:30,149 --> 02:16:28,239
thinking that the

3797
02:16:31,830 --> 02:16:30,159
by elevating the propositional knowledge

3798
02:16:34,230 --> 02:16:31,840
and what we need to do is go back to the

3799
02:16:36,469 --> 02:16:34,240
participatory yeah and and that's

3800
02:16:39,030 --> 02:16:36,479
exactly what i'm saying i am exactly

3801
02:16:40,549 --> 02:16:39,040
saying that the way that we've read the

3802
02:16:42,870 --> 02:16:40,559
cave right

3803
02:16:45,429 --> 02:16:42,880
has been a propositional framework we've

3804
02:16:46,389 --> 02:16:45,439
used a propositional framework to read

3805
02:16:48,629 --> 02:16:46,399
it

3806
02:16:50,950 --> 02:16:48,639
and we've neglected to see the most

3807
02:16:51,910 --> 02:16:50,960
important point that is trying to tell

3808
02:16:53,990 --> 02:16:51,920
us

3809
02:16:56,709 --> 02:16:54,000
and that we have to go back

3810
02:16:59,589 --> 02:16:56,719
and look at that and really engage with

3811
02:17:00,870 --> 02:16:59,599
what it is that he that he told us back

3812
02:17:02,549 --> 02:17:00,880
in the day

3813
02:17:03,669 --> 02:17:02,559
and i think that heidegger tried to do

3814
02:17:06,230 --> 02:17:03,679
that

3815
02:17:07,669 --> 02:17:06,240
i don't i mean he he was successful but

3816
02:17:09,349 --> 02:17:07,679
i think that a lot of people just don't

3817
02:17:11,349 --> 02:17:09,359
even know understand what heidegger was

3818
02:17:12,709 --> 02:17:11,359
doing and i think what you just said was

3819
02:17:14,950 --> 02:17:12,719
correct i think we have to be

3820
02:17:17,349 --> 02:17:14,960
participatory in that way

3821
02:17:19,750 --> 02:17:17,359
engage because the craft isn't engaging

3822
02:17:21,830 --> 02:17:19,760
it's a dialectic it's a dialogue

3823
02:17:23,830 --> 02:17:21,840
and you do it with a person and you know

3824
02:17:25,509 --> 02:17:23,840
what i find fascinating is that you also

3825
02:17:27,429 --> 02:17:25,519
see this in buddhism

3826
02:17:29,589 --> 02:17:27,439
so the one there are these these things

3827
02:17:32,389 --> 02:17:29,599
called the three jewels of buddhism one

3828
02:17:33,830 --> 02:17:32,399
is the buddha not that you worship this

3829
02:17:35,910 --> 02:17:33,840
guy named the buddha it's actually a

3830
02:17:38,870 --> 02:17:35,920
title which means awake

3831
02:17:40,870 --> 02:17:38,880
and buddhism so you have buddha as the

3832
02:17:43,110 --> 02:17:40,880
as an example of what a human being can

3833
02:17:45,270 --> 02:17:43,120
become they can become awake

3834
02:17:47,030 --> 02:17:45,280
and then you have the dharma which is

3835
02:17:48,469 --> 02:17:47,040
the teaching and it doesn't have to be a

3836
02:17:50,389 --> 02:17:48,479
book it's anything that's going to wake

3837
02:17:53,110 --> 02:17:50,399
you up that's the teaching and then you

3838
02:17:55,750 --> 02:17:53,120
have the most important point the sangha

3839
02:17:58,150 --> 02:17:55,760
and that's the community

3840
02:18:01,190 --> 02:17:58,160
because human beings live together we

3841
02:18:03,509 --> 02:18:01,200
don't live as you know so we have to do

3842
02:18:05,669 --> 02:18:03,519
this together and i think that that's

3843
02:18:06,629 --> 02:18:05,679
what socrates was basically saying

3844
02:18:07,509 --> 02:18:06,639
saying

3845
02:18:10,150 --> 02:18:07,519
they're all

3846
02:18:12,549 --> 02:18:10,160
in the cave like we you know okay sad

3847
02:18:14,389 --> 02:18:12,559
for them you tried to get them out

3848
02:18:16,549 --> 02:18:14,399
but now we have each other

3849
02:18:18,870 --> 02:18:16,559
and this is what we have to do to keep

3850
02:18:21,270 --> 02:18:18,880
each other from being put back in the

3851
02:18:25,910 --> 02:18:21,280
cave i mean he was saying that

3852
02:18:31,030 --> 02:18:28,150
is there an aspect of meaning associated

3853
02:18:31,830 --> 02:18:31,040
with this or rediscovering meaning

3854
02:18:34,469 --> 02:18:31,840
yeah

3855
02:18:36,389 --> 02:18:34,479
it's a it's a meaning that's intrinsic

3856
02:18:37,509 --> 02:18:36,399
now here's the reason i say that it's

3857
02:18:38,709 --> 02:18:37,519
because from my understanding of

3858
02:18:41,110 --> 02:18:38,719
heidegger and heidegger is one of the

3859
02:18:43,030 --> 02:18:41,120
hardest people to read yeah i agree he

3860
02:18:45,589 --> 02:18:43,040
makes up his own language

3861
02:18:47,990 --> 02:18:45,599
but he was saying look what a lover does

3862
02:18:49,349 --> 02:18:48,000
as a if you love your spouse you give

3863
02:18:50,950 --> 02:18:49,359
them flowers

3864
02:18:53,190 --> 02:18:50,960
you don't give them plants

3865
02:18:55,190 --> 02:18:53,200
you don't give them

3866
02:18:58,389 --> 02:18:55,200
the subjects of

3867
02:19:00,070 --> 02:18:58,399
of horticultural investigations

3868
02:19:01,349 --> 02:19:00,080
but they're the same

3869
02:19:02,870 --> 02:19:01,359
they're actually the same the plant in

3870
02:19:05,349 --> 02:19:02,880
the flower and the horticultural

3871
02:19:08,389 --> 02:19:05,359
investigatory object is the same however

3872
02:19:10,629 --> 02:19:08,399
it's wrong to give your spouse a a plant

3873
02:19:12,709 --> 02:19:10,639
for valentine's day

3874
02:19:14,709 --> 02:19:12,719
and so it's because even though the

3875
02:19:16,469 --> 02:19:14,719
literal is the same the meaning isn't

3876
02:19:17,830 --> 02:19:16,479
and there's something about recapturing

3877
02:19:19,429 --> 02:19:17,840
meaning or looking at something in the

3878
02:19:21,270 --> 02:19:19,439
correct way that

3879
02:19:23,030 --> 02:19:21,280
heidegger was pointing to

3880
02:19:23,910 --> 02:19:23,040
one of the reasons i like heidegger is

3881
02:19:25,910 --> 02:19:23,920
that

3882
02:19:27,110 --> 02:19:25,920
in some sense remember i was giving you

3883
02:19:28,549 --> 02:19:27,120
an outline of what theories of

3884
02:19:29,750 --> 02:19:28,559
everything is

3885
02:19:32,150 --> 02:19:29,760
now no way am i saying it's a

3886
02:19:35,349 --> 02:19:32,160
continuation of heidegger's project but

3887
02:19:36,070 --> 02:19:35,359
it's similarly themed in that

3888
02:19:39,830 --> 02:19:36,080
he

3889
02:19:41,669 --> 02:19:39,840
that a project should be that we should

3890
02:19:43,669 --> 02:19:41,679
be understanding

3891
02:19:45,429 --> 02:19:43,679
our being in order to understand our

3892
02:19:47,270 --> 02:19:45,439
relationship to being in order to

3893
02:19:48,469 --> 02:19:47,280
understand being and while what is being

3894
02:19:49,910 --> 02:19:48,479
well being is

3895
02:19:51,349 --> 02:19:49,920
i i don't know how to describe what

3896
02:19:53,030 --> 02:19:51,359
heidegger would say being is other than

3897
02:19:54,230 --> 02:19:53,040
existence and earlier you mentioned the

3898
02:19:55,750 --> 02:19:54,240
heidegger was interested in why

3899
02:19:57,429 --> 02:19:55,760
something exists i think that

3900
02:19:58,630 --> 02:19:57,439
wittgenstein was interested in why

3901
02:20:00,550 --> 02:19:58,640
something exists and how something

3902
02:20:03,349 --> 02:20:00,560
exists where heidegger was interested in

3903
02:20:05,590 --> 02:20:03,359
existence what is existence itself i

3904
02:20:07,830 --> 02:20:05,600
agree with you i think so i think also

3905
02:20:09,190 --> 02:20:07,840
that wittgenstein realized that language

3906
02:20:10,309 --> 02:20:09,200
actually couldn't

3907
02:20:12,230 --> 02:20:10,319
contain

3908
02:20:14,389 --> 02:20:12,240
a lot of what existence is about and

3909
02:20:15,349 --> 02:20:14,399
then you know he kind of gave up on it

3910
02:20:17,110 --> 02:20:15,359
he said

3911
02:20:18,950 --> 02:20:17,120
i think his famous quote is of that

3912
02:20:20,790 --> 02:20:18,960
which we cannot speak we should remain

3913
02:20:23,510 --> 02:20:20,800
silent which i of course don't agree

3914
02:20:25,750 --> 02:20:23,520
with because then you have art right and

3915
02:20:27,910 --> 02:20:25,760
music so let's not remain silent that

3916
02:20:29,270 --> 02:20:27,920
would take away a good part of what

3917
02:20:31,110 --> 02:20:29,280
living is about

3918
02:20:33,270 --> 02:20:31,120
so yeah

3919
02:20:35,510 --> 02:20:33,280
well he also was an artist he i don't

3920
02:20:38,230 --> 02:20:35,520
know if he meant language per se rather

3921
02:20:39,670 --> 02:20:38,240
than art maybe art wasn't it was a

3922
02:20:41,590 --> 02:20:39,680
was all right to

3923
02:20:44,070 --> 02:20:41,600
as a mode of expressing oneself to

3924
02:20:45,110 --> 02:20:44,080
understand the world it's strange

3925
02:20:47,270 --> 02:20:45,120
because i was looking up heidegger and

3926
02:20:49,349 --> 02:20:47,280
heidegger apparently was an atheist but

3927
02:20:51,590 --> 02:20:49,359
i see him as in a sense wrestling with

3928
02:20:53,510 --> 02:20:51,600
god or trying to figure out what god is

3929
02:20:55,030 --> 02:20:53,520
and same with wittgenstein

3930
02:20:57,110 --> 02:20:55,040
witkinstein i don't think he explicitly

3931
02:20:58,630 --> 02:20:57,120
called himself an atheist but either way

3932
02:21:00,950 --> 02:20:58,640
norman malcolm i don't know if you know

3933
02:21:02,469 --> 02:21:00,960
this his friend norman malcolm said the

3934
02:21:03,670 --> 02:21:02,479
religiosity that characterized

3935
02:21:05,429 --> 02:21:03,680
wittgenstein was greater than the

3936
02:21:06,950 --> 02:21:05,439
average religious person and

3937
02:21:08,150 --> 02:21:06,960
wittgenstein he said he can't help but

3938
02:21:10,070 --> 02:21:08,160
see every problem through religious

3939
02:21:11,990 --> 02:21:10,080
point of view so i see heidegger

3940
02:21:13,990 --> 02:21:12,000
similarly or even though he may say he's

3941
02:21:16,870 --> 02:21:14,000
an atheist it seems like what he's doing

3942
02:21:18,309 --> 02:21:16,880
is is trying to understand god

3943
02:21:21,190 --> 02:21:18,319
well i mean there's a reason why i'm

3944
02:21:24,550 --> 02:21:21,200
very attracted to his work and

3945
02:21:26,710 --> 02:21:24,560
you know and i i find it to be mystical

3946
02:21:28,469 --> 02:21:26,720
i think that his later work was he he

3947
02:21:29,429 --> 02:21:28,479
had a mystical experience and they tried

3948
02:21:31,990 --> 02:21:29,439
to

3949
02:21:33,750 --> 02:21:32,000
express that that understanding through

3950
02:21:36,309 --> 02:21:33,760
his and i think that's why he went

3951
02:21:37,750 --> 02:21:36,319
pre-socratic he went back to you know

3952
02:21:40,710 --> 02:21:37,760
socrates and

3953
02:21:42,630 --> 02:21:40,720
pre-socratics in order to

3954
02:21:44,870 --> 02:21:42,640
you know to express what he thought we

3955
02:21:46,150 --> 02:21:44,880
had lost as a culture

3956
02:21:47,830 --> 02:21:46,160
have you heard from many of the people

3957
02:21:49,510 --> 02:21:47,840
who are on the more buddhist slash

3958
02:21:51,910 --> 02:21:49,520
eastern end that would say that you

3959
02:21:53,349 --> 02:21:51,920
cannot discover god or

3960
02:21:55,590 --> 02:21:53,359
reality or whatever

3961
02:21:57,510 --> 02:21:55,600
synonym one wants to give it that has

3962
02:21:59,990 --> 02:21:57,520
some dramatic flair to it

3963
02:22:02,309 --> 02:22:00,000
you cannot discover it via an analytical

3964
02:22:05,510 --> 02:22:02,319
approach that you must experience it has

3965
02:22:06,469 --> 02:22:05,520
to be something that is beyond language

3966
02:22:07,670 --> 02:22:06,479
do you

3967
02:22:09,590 --> 02:22:07,680
have firstly have you heard that and

3968
02:22:11,110 --> 02:22:09,600
then secondly if you have do you believe

3969
02:22:14,309 --> 02:22:11,120
that to be the case

3970
02:22:16,630 --> 02:22:14,319
yes so i would say that um beyond

3971
02:22:18,389 --> 02:22:16,640
heidegger's writing and on a hannah

3972
02:22:21,270 --> 02:22:18,399
arendt's writing

3973
02:22:22,710 --> 02:22:21,280
i was very influenced by the writings of

3974
02:22:24,070 --> 02:22:22,720
the people involved in what's called the

3975
02:22:28,469 --> 02:22:24,080
kyoto school

3976
02:22:30,309 --> 02:22:28,479
school of zen buddhism philosophers they

3977
02:22:33,110 --> 02:22:30,319
didn't call themselves religious

3978
02:22:36,550 --> 02:22:33,120
religion wasn't even a term for them but

3979
02:22:38,790 --> 02:22:36,560
they they were using zen in order to

3980
02:22:41,429 --> 02:22:38,800
explicate like philosophy and that's how

3981
02:22:43,429 --> 02:22:41,439
heidegger kind of got involved with them

3982
02:22:45,110 --> 02:22:43,439
and um one of my

3983
02:22:47,590 --> 02:22:45,120
one of the books that i think is most

3984
02:22:48,870 --> 02:22:47,600
fascinating i think it's called um

3985
02:22:51,190 --> 02:22:48,880
i think it's called the philosophy of

3986
02:22:54,950 --> 02:22:51,200
nothingness and i forgot exactly who

3987
02:22:57,030 --> 02:22:54,960
wrote it but it's that person his he has

3988
02:22:59,270 --> 02:22:57,040
that's where he links he actually went

3989
02:23:01,670 --> 02:22:59,280
back and read nietzsche and kind of

3990
02:23:04,070 --> 02:23:01,680
through the lens of zen buddhism and i

3991
02:23:05,349 --> 02:23:04,080
thought it was a fascinating book um so

3992
02:23:08,950 --> 02:23:05,359
if you're interested

3993
02:23:10,870 --> 02:23:08,960
it's the philosophy of nothingness

3994
02:23:12,469 --> 02:23:10,880
so yes absolutely that's what he's

3995
02:23:14,950 --> 02:23:12,479
basically saying i mean i also think

3996
02:23:17,670 --> 02:23:14,960
that nietzsche was a mystic as well you

3997
02:23:19,270 --> 02:23:17,680
know his his his flash is is basically

3998
02:23:20,870 --> 02:23:19,280
mysticism

3999
02:23:22,950 --> 02:23:20,880
now nietzsche is someone that i feel

4000
02:23:24,790 --> 02:23:22,960
horrible for not liking because everyone

4001
02:23:27,830 --> 02:23:24,800
likes yeah

4002
02:23:29,190 --> 02:23:27,840
but i don't i i just can't i'd rather

4003
02:23:30,870 --> 02:23:29,200
read what other people have said about

4004
02:23:32,790 --> 02:23:30,880
him than he then go to the primary

4005
02:23:35,830 --> 02:23:32,800
source which is anathema to

4006
02:23:37,990 --> 02:23:35,840
to scholars because it's well to me the

4007
02:23:38,790 --> 02:23:38,000
way that i view it it's like wine you

4008
02:23:40,469 --> 02:23:38,800
you

4009
02:23:41,990 --> 02:23:40,479
i for me when i drink which i don't

4010
02:23:44,150 --> 02:23:42,000
drink anymore but i was never partial to

4011
02:23:45,110 --> 02:23:44,160
wine to wine i

4012
02:23:52,070 --> 02:23:45,120
i

4013
02:23:53,750 --> 02:23:52,080
myself

4014
02:23:56,950 --> 02:23:53,760
by constantly drinking it in order to

4015
02:23:58,790 --> 02:23:56,960
get the quote-unquote in acquired taste

4016
02:24:00,630 --> 02:23:58,800
so i think that's what's necessary in

4017
02:24:03,670 --> 02:24:00,640
order to understand nietzsche properly

4018
02:24:05,670 --> 02:24:03,680
no it's not did did you not read about

4019
02:24:07,670 --> 02:24:05,680
my nietzsche synchronicity that caused

4020
02:24:09,030 --> 02:24:07,680
because i hated it yeah yeah well well

4021
02:24:10,950 --> 02:24:09,040
good for you in the sense that you're

4022
02:24:12,550 --> 02:24:10,960
lucky that you have that no i know

4023
02:24:14,230 --> 02:24:12,560
because i would have continued to hate

4024
02:24:17,030 --> 02:24:14,240
nietzsche as well just like you and good

4025
02:24:19,270 --> 02:24:17,040
for you i i would be very suspicious of

4026
02:24:21,510 --> 02:24:19,280
a person who naturally liked each other

4027
02:24:24,469 --> 02:24:21,520
frankly i think you have to encounter

4028
02:24:28,469 --> 02:24:26,150
so yeah i mean a lot of what he says is

4029
02:24:30,309 --> 02:24:28,479
horrible

4030
02:24:32,469 --> 02:24:30,319
so i'm much more of a lovecraftian in

4031
02:24:35,270 --> 02:24:32,479
the sense that you mentioned the cave

4032
02:24:36,630 --> 02:24:35,280
allegory and i'm much more inclined to

4033
02:24:37,910 --> 02:24:36,640
feel like that

4034
02:24:39,190 --> 02:24:37,920
and i used to be of the type that give

4035
02:24:41,590 --> 02:24:39,200
me the truth and no matter what form it

4036
02:24:44,230 --> 02:24:41,600
comes but i've had some experiences

4037
02:24:45,990 --> 02:24:44,240
where i feel like sometimes the truth is

4038
02:24:48,309 --> 02:24:46,000
far too much for you to handle and you

4039
02:24:50,389 --> 02:24:48,319
can you can damage yourself

4040
02:24:51,990 --> 02:24:50,399
drastically from

4041
02:24:53,590 --> 02:24:52,000
an encounter with the truth and

4042
02:24:55,590 --> 02:24:53,600
lovecraft had this

4043
02:24:57,750 --> 02:24:55,600
this quote which which to me i interpret

4044
02:24:59,590 --> 02:24:57,760
as the case for ignorance

4045
02:25:01,670 --> 02:24:59,600
and it's it's something like the

4046
02:25:03,750 --> 02:25:01,680
greatest mercy in the world is the

4047
02:25:05,510 --> 02:25:03,760
inability for the human mind to

4048
02:25:06,710 --> 02:25:05,520
correlate its contents

4049
02:25:08,710 --> 02:25:06,720
and that

4050
02:25:11,349 --> 02:25:08,720
one day we'll see that this

4051
02:25:13,349 --> 02:25:11,359
unfettered scientific investigation may

4052
02:25:15,510 --> 02:25:13,359
bring about such a terrifying vista of

4053
02:25:17,429 --> 02:25:15,520
reality that we'll see

4054
02:25:19,830 --> 02:25:17,439
our fragile place in it and be so

4055
02:25:22,550 --> 02:25:19,840
frightened that we'll either go mad from

4056
02:25:25,590 --> 02:25:22,560
the revelation or

4057
02:25:28,630 --> 02:25:25,600
or flee from the light into the

4058
02:25:30,230 --> 02:25:28,640
peace and security of the dark ages

4059
02:25:31,990 --> 02:25:30,240
so

4060
02:25:33,910 --> 02:25:32,000
in the cave allegory i see that as the

4061
02:25:35,349 --> 02:25:33,920
person who runs back in the cave

4062
02:25:37,270 --> 02:25:35,359
now you mentioned that there may be a

4063
02:25:38,710 --> 02:25:37,280
solution to that and i well i'm i'm

4064
02:25:40,070 --> 02:25:38,720
praying and i'm hoping that your book

4065
02:25:43,110 --> 02:25:40,080
provides some solution to that because

4066
02:25:45,429 --> 02:25:43,120
right now i'm fleeing from the

4067
02:25:51,510 --> 02:25:45,439
from the

4068
02:25:52,389 --> 02:25:51,520
you mean you're going back into the cave

4069
02:25:56,870 --> 02:25:52,399
i i

4070
02:25:59,910 --> 02:25:56,880
pray for the for the cave i think that

4071
02:26:01,990 --> 02:25:59,920
the the more fiendish and cursed aspects

4072
02:26:04,230 --> 02:26:02,000
of a quote-unquote open mind haven't

4073
02:26:06,070 --> 02:26:04,240
been explicated by people or even

4074
02:26:07,670 --> 02:26:06,080
recognized that it's seen in this

4075
02:26:09,990 --> 02:26:07,680
culture as something that one everyone

4076
02:26:11,590 --> 02:26:10,000
should have more of and i think that my

4077
02:26:14,469 --> 02:26:11,600
mind has been somewhat

4078
02:26:17,830 --> 02:26:14,479
too open and i need to close it and it's

4079
02:26:20,230 --> 02:26:17,840
not pleasant to have such an open mind

4080
02:26:22,950 --> 02:26:20,240
no i'm not saying that as something yet

4081
02:26:24,870 --> 02:26:22,960
yeah that's where the sangha comes in

4082
02:26:28,710 --> 02:26:24,880
that's where you have to have people

4083
02:26:32,790 --> 02:26:30,710
because it's not it's not easy to have

4084
02:26:35,590 --> 02:26:32,800
an open mind especially when everyone

4085
02:26:37,910 --> 02:26:35,600
around us is you know like they are

4086
02:26:40,230 --> 02:26:37,920
and that's why

4087
02:26:41,510 --> 02:26:40,240
i mean that's why it's necessary it's

4088
02:26:47,429 --> 02:26:41,520
not just

4089
02:26:51,590 --> 02:26:49,590
well

4090
02:27:04,790 --> 02:26:51,600
i

4091
02:27:06,469 --> 02:27:04,800
that have gone through

4092
02:27:09,590 --> 02:27:06,479
death in a sense

4093
02:27:11,590 --> 02:27:09,600
and are now alive again

4094
02:27:12,630 --> 02:27:11,600
and so i thought

4095
02:27:18,070 --> 02:27:12,640
that's

4096
02:27:21,510 --> 02:27:19,910
yeah

4097
02:27:22,790 --> 02:27:21,520
have you gone through

4098
02:27:26,790 --> 02:27:22,800
well what's the difference between

4099
02:27:29,590 --> 02:27:26,800
epistemic shock and ontological shock

4100
02:27:32,070 --> 02:27:29,600
okay so i think that epistemic shock is

4101
02:27:33,750 --> 02:27:32,080
when you realize that the world you

4102
02:27:35,750 --> 02:27:33,760
thought you knew and the assumptions

4103
02:27:36,429 --> 02:27:35,760
that you had about it were wrong and

4104
02:27:39,510 --> 02:27:36,439
that

4105
02:27:40,469 --> 02:27:39,520
instigates probably ontological shock

4106
02:27:42,950 --> 02:27:40,479
where

4107
02:27:45,110 --> 02:27:42,960
it's ontological in the sense that

4108
02:27:47,190 --> 02:27:45,120
you can no longer live the same

4109
02:27:50,070 --> 02:27:47,200
like you know the ways in which you live

4110
02:27:52,710 --> 02:27:50,080
now have to change

4111
02:27:54,469 --> 02:27:52,720
so i see them as happening at

4112
02:27:56,309 --> 02:27:54,479
one right after the other

4113
02:27:57,670 --> 02:27:56,319
one is kind of theoretical and the other

4114
02:28:00,230 --> 02:27:57,680
is

4115
02:28:03,190 --> 02:28:00,240
institutional

4116
02:28:05,750 --> 02:28:03,200
well okay to to make a play on words

4117
02:28:07,590 --> 02:28:05,760
there i feel like i have gone through

4118
02:28:09,429 --> 02:28:07,600
somewhat of each of those shocks and

4119
02:28:12,710 --> 02:28:09,439
have almost been to the point where i

4120
02:28:14,469 --> 02:28:12,720
need to be institutionalized and so it's

4121
02:28:16,630 --> 02:28:14,479
it's actually extremely frightening to

4122
02:28:18,389 --> 02:28:16,640
study consciousness and what reality is

4123
02:28:19,429 --> 02:28:18,399
and to constantly have

4124
02:28:21,349 --> 02:28:19,439
one's

4125
02:28:22,309 --> 02:28:21,359
world view

4126
02:28:23,670 --> 02:28:22,319
shattered

4127
02:28:28,070 --> 02:28:23,680
and

4128
02:28:29,110 --> 02:28:28,080
which is what this channel is it's it's

4129
02:28:30,710 --> 02:28:29,120
not a

4130
02:28:32,150 --> 02:28:30,720
it's not pleasant

4131
02:28:34,710 --> 02:28:32,160
and

4132
02:28:36,950 --> 02:28:34,720
well it's not pleasant luckily i'm like

4133
02:28:38,830 --> 02:28:36,960
just getting out of it it's only

4134
02:28:40,230 --> 02:28:38,840
by the grace of

4135
02:28:42,150 --> 02:28:40,240
god i'm

4136
02:28:43,910 --> 02:28:42,160
just getting out of it but

4137
02:28:45,510 --> 02:28:43,920
it's not pleasant

4138
02:28:48,070 --> 02:28:45,520
i'm i'm wondering what was your

4139
02:28:51,910 --> 02:28:48,080
epistemic and ontological shock

4140
02:28:56,630 --> 02:28:54,790
yes um it happened in i think it was

4141
02:28:59,590 --> 02:28:56,640
2012

4142
02:29:03,349 --> 02:28:59,600
and it was during the whole weekend

4143
02:29:05,590 --> 02:29:03,359
and it was just after the you know that

4144
02:29:07,670 --> 02:29:05,600
i think it was in march that the tsunami

4145
02:29:09,910 --> 02:29:07,680
happened in 2011

4146
02:29:12,389 --> 02:29:09,920
and that was shocking of course

4147
02:29:15,830 --> 02:29:12,399
but after that i had a very

4148
02:29:17,590 --> 02:29:15,840
very real sense of impending

4149
02:29:19,349 --> 02:29:17,600
you know this could happen and it's

4150
02:29:20,790 --> 02:29:19,359
terrible like a whole civilization could

4151
02:29:22,550 --> 02:29:20,800
like get washed out or you know

4152
02:29:25,270 --> 02:29:22,560
something could happen and

4153
02:29:26,870 --> 02:29:25,280
apocalyptic kind of feelings and that's

4154
02:29:28,790 --> 02:29:26,880
when i was doing the research that i was

4155
02:29:30,070 --> 02:29:28,800
doing into the ufo

4156
02:29:32,309 --> 02:29:30,080
realities

4157
02:29:33,670 --> 02:29:32,319
and that's when i i went back and i

4158
02:29:35,910 --> 02:29:33,680
looked at some of the primary source

4159
02:29:37,830 --> 02:29:35,920
material for catholic history and i

4160
02:29:39,270 --> 02:29:37,840
realized what was happening

4161
02:29:41,190 --> 02:29:39,280
was happening now

4162
02:29:43,510 --> 02:29:41,200
and that people and that and that's when

4163
02:29:44,950 --> 02:29:43,520
i met people who

4164
02:29:47,110 --> 02:29:44,960
seemed to care

4165
02:29:48,550 --> 02:29:47,120
that i knew and that's those were like

4166
02:29:49,670 --> 02:29:48,560
you know the people we referred to

4167
02:29:52,070 --> 02:29:49,680
earlier

4168
02:29:53,270 --> 02:29:52,080
and i guess the reality of this

4169
02:29:55,910 --> 02:29:53,280
shocked me

4170
02:29:59,590 --> 02:29:55,920
on a level that that i call it

4171
02:30:01,750 --> 02:29:59,600
pre-ufo diana and post-ufo diana right

4172
02:30:04,309 --> 02:30:01,760
okay and it definitely wasn't pleasant

4173
02:30:06,550 --> 02:30:04,319
so it was um and it lasted it was for

4174
02:30:08,870 --> 02:30:06,560
the weekend it was so

4175
02:30:09,990 --> 02:30:08,880
destabilizing

4176
02:30:12,389 --> 02:30:10,000
great work

4177
02:30:13,429 --> 02:30:12,399
yeah so i was destabilized so

4178
02:30:15,590 --> 02:30:13,439
but

4179
02:30:17,110 --> 02:30:15,600
i had a lot to fall back on

4180
02:30:20,630 --> 02:30:17,120
because i'd studied religion my whole

4181
02:30:23,349 --> 02:30:20,640
life so i knew from buddhism and from

4182
02:30:25,510 --> 02:30:23,359
catholicism that there were

4183
02:30:27,270 --> 02:30:25,520
you know there are ways to get through

4184
02:30:28,150 --> 02:30:27,280
this because i read it you know it's

4185
02:30:29,510 --> 02:30:28,160
called

4186
02:30:32,230 --> 02:30:29,520
saint john of the cross calls it the

4187
02:30:34,630 --> 02:30:32,240
dark knight of the soul okay oh you know

4188
02:30:36,230 --> 02:30:34,640
you wanna oh sorry sorry just as a quick

4189
02:30:37,590 --> 02:30:36,240
side i was being interviewed by someone

4190
02:30:38,710 --> 02:30:37,600
telling them about my experience and

4191
02:30:40,790 --> 02:30:38,720
they said kurt it sounds like you're

4192
02:30:42,550 --> 02:30:40,800
going through the dark night of the soul

4193
02:30:44,550 --> 02:30:42,560
yeah that's what you that's what it is

4194
02:30:47,990 --> 02:30:44,560
it's the dark night of the soul so okay

4195
02:30:50,710 --> 02:30:48,000
so think about it now i've had i've read

4196
02:30:52,469 --> 02:30:50,720
all of this and knew all of these things

4197
02:30:54,950 --> 02:30:52,479
so i already had something to fall back

4198
02:30:56,550 --> 02:30:54,960
on which is why you don't

4199
02:30:57,910 --> 02:30:56,560
but you know nietzsche comes in handy

4200
02:30:59,590 --> 02:30:57,920
here because nietzsche went through it

4201
02:31:03,110 --> 02:30:59,600
too i it almost seems like he didn't

4202
02:31:05,030 --> 02:31:03,120
survive it frankly because he was so he

4203
02:31:06,469 --> 02:31:05,040
didn't have a sangha it didn't seem like

4204
02:31:08,309 --> 02:31:06,479
and he didn't have

4205
02:31:10,150 --> 02:31:08,319
you know he didn't have the well

4206
02:31:11,990 --> 02:31:10,160
heidegger had the catholic tradition

4207
02:31:13,830 --> 02:31:12,000
which he was able to

4208
02:31:16,230 --> 02:31:13,840
you know he also had his friends at the

4209
02:31:18,630 --> 02:31:16,240
kyoto school you know

4210
02:31:20,550 --> 02:31:18,640
try going through satori experiences and

4211
02:31:22,710 --> 02:31:20,560
and stay stable right

4212
02:31:24,790 --> 02:31:22,720
so you know so he had like a lot of

4213
02:31:26,630 --> 02:31:24,800
people so i think that that's something

4214
02:31:29,670 --> 02:31:26,640
that we have to take into consideration

4215
02:31:30,389 --> 02:31:29,680
here is that i think you know stay away

4216
02:31:31,349 --> 02:31:30,399
from

4217
02:31:33,830 --> 02:31:31,359
like

4218
02:31:35,590 --> 02:31:33,840
gather around yourself some people who

4219
02:31:36,389 --> 02:31:35,600
have been through it so that they can

4220
02:31:37,670 --> 02:31:36,399
say

4221
02:31:39,830 --> 02:31:37,680
oh yeah

4222
02:31:41,590 --> 02:31:39,840
been there you know what i mean so like

4223
02:31:46,309 --> 02:31:41,600
i get it you know

4224
02:31:52,710 --> 02:31:49,830
so that's what i had i had um i had i

4225
02:31:56,389 --> 02:31:52,720
have a woman named sister rose

4226
02:31:59,349 --> 02:31:56,399
so she's a catholic uh ursuline sister

4227
02:32:02,309 --> 02:31:59,359
and this is how she put it she said

4228
02:32:04,630 --> 02:32:02,319
diana she said

4229
02:32:06,389 --> 02:32:04,640
this is what's going on she said you've

4230
02:32:07,750 --> 02:32:06,399
and jeff kreipel has a book called

4231
02:32:10,309 --> 02:32:07,760
flipped

4232
02:32:12,870 --> 02:32:10,319
in which she talks exactly about this he

4233
02:32:14,469 --> 02:32:12,880
says you flip jeff kreipel yeah he's at

4234
02:32:16,710 --> 02:32:14,479
rice university you should have him on

4235
02:32:18,790 --> 02:32:16,720
your show he's great

4236
02:32:20,630 --> 02:32:18,800
so he's a professor at rice university

4237
02:32:23,670 --> 02:32:20,640
and basically he went through the same

4238
02:32:24,790 --> 02:32:23,680
he was a he was in training to be a monk

4239
02:32:25,750 --> 02:32:24,800
and then

4240
02:32:30,389 --> 02:32:25,760
he

4241
02:32:31,990 --> 02:32:30,399
became a professor of religion

4242
02:32:34,870 --> 02:32:32,000
and he had it he had some cool

4243
02:32:36,550 --> 02:32:34,880
experiences okay so um

4244
02:32:39,190 --> 02:32:36,560
but he knows what this is about instead

4245
02:32:41,670 --> 02:32:39,200
of sister rose sister russe said

4246
02:32:43,510 --> 02:32:41,680
we tend to think that the world is like

4247
02:32:45,110 --> 02:32:43,520
how we were brought up to believe and

4248
02:32:46,870 --> 02:32:45,120
then all of a sudden we have experiences

4249
02:32:49,429 --> 02:32:46,880
that show us that the world is actually

4250
02:32:51,190 --> 02:32:49,439
not like that at all and then we

4251
02:32:52,790 --> 02:32:51,200
sometimes we never get over that she

4252
02:32:55,830 --> 02:32:52,800
says but

4253
02:32:57,429 --> 02:32:55,840
we're here like you know her order you

4254
02:32:59,830 --> 02:32:57,439
know and her and the catholic you know

4255
02:33:01,750 --> 02:32:59,840
the the people of the church you know

4256
02:33:04,469 --> 02:33:01,760
they had mystical experiences she said

4257
02:33:07,670 --> 02:33:04,479
this tradition is here to tell you that

4258
02:33:09,830 --> 02:33:07,680
we are in the world but we are not of

4259
02:33:12,309 --> 02:33:09,840
the world and that actually makes sense

4260
02:33:15,349 --> 02:33:12,319
now to me because i was like

4261
02:33:17,030 --> 02:33:15,359
ah that's what that means she said it's

4262
02:33:19,030 --> 02:33:17,040
really like the way you see it now

4263
02:33:21,030 --> 02:33:19,040
that's really how the world

4264
02:33:23,190 --> 02:33:21,040
looks but it's not like how these other

4265
02:33:24,710 --> 02:33:23,200
people see it she said they just think

4266
02:33:26,710 --> 02:33:24,720
that it's like that but they're not

4267
02:33:28,230 --> 02:33:26,720
actually you know it might happen to

4268
02:33:29,990 --> 02:33:28,240
them too at some point they might get

4269
02:33:31,429 --> 02:33:30,000
flipped she goes but mostly it probably

4270
02:33:33,670 --> 02:33:31,439
won't because it doesn't happen to

4271
02:33:36,150 --> 02:33:33,680
everyone it only happens to a few

4272
02:33:38,550 --> 02:33:36,160
so does that make sense so there are

4273
02:33:40,630 --> 02:33:38,560
people to which this has happened

4274
02:33:42,309 --> 02:33:40,640
and now they live in this reality and

4275
02:33:44,469 --> 02:33:42,319
that reality for them

4276
02:33:47,750 --> 02:33:44,479
is um

4277
02:33:52,070 --> 02:33:49,670
what do you mean when you say it is the

4278
02:33:54,389 --> 02:33:52,080
world is actually how it looks

4279
02:33:56,389 --> 02:33:54,399
well when i say okay so you know when

4280
02:33:58,710 --> 02:33:56,399
you you've gone through a night of the

4281
02:34:01,190 --> 02:33:58,720
soul of the dark night of the soul and

4282
02:34:02,550 --> 02:34:01,200
the next day or you know when for me it

4283
02:34:06,950 --> 02:34:02,560
was that weekend

4284
02:34:10,630 --> 02:34:09,670
i have a new perspective on what life is

4285
02:34:11,830 --> 02:34:10,640
about

4286
02:34:13,190 --> 02:34:11,840
and

4287
02:34:14,950 --> 02:34:13,200
now i'm going to have to live with this

4288
02:34:16,389 --> 02:34:14,960
new perspective i don't know what it's

4289
02:34:17,510 --> 02:34:16,399
going to be like

4290
02:34:19,349 --> 02:34:17,520
and so that's what she was trying to

4291
02:34:21,110 --> 02:34:19,359
explain to me she was trying to explain

4292
02:34:23,510 --> 02:34:21,120
that

4293
02:34:26,710 --> 02:34:23,520
you you don't have to go back to the

4294
02:34:29,190 --> 02:34:26,720
perspectives and use those as tools for

4295
02:34:31,429 --> 02:34:29,200
interpreting the world she said

4296
02:34:33,670 --> 02:34:31,439
you're fresh it's like you're born again

4297
02:34:35,990 --> 02:34:33,680
you're new in this new world and now you

4298
02:34:37,590 --> 02:34:36,000
have to use different tools but

4299
02:34:39,190 --> 02:34:37,600
thankfully because i've been studying

4300
02:34:42,309 --> 02:34:39,200
about religion or philosophy my whole

4301
02:34:43,670 --> 02:34:42,319
life i had all those tools

4302
02:34:44,870 --> 02:34:43,680
but i just didn't know that that's what

4303
02:34:47,190 --> 02:34:44,880
i was doing my whole life i was

4304
02:34:50,150 --> 02:34:47,200
preparing myself to kind of do that by

4305
02:34:51,590 --> 02:34:50,160
use by learning those tools and now like

4306
02:34:53,510 --> 02:34:51,600
i have a lot of people who come to me

4307
02:34:56,070 --> 02:34:53,520
who are students or

4308
02:34:57,270 --> 02:34:56,080
you know who are grown-ups you know and

4309
02:34:59,830 --> 02:34:57,280
this has happened to them and they're

4310
02:35:01,670 --> 02:34:59,840
like what do i do and then i give them

4311
02:35:03,190 --> 02:35:01,680
you know say okay this is you know a lot

4312
02:35:05,270 --> 02:35:03,200
of times in their own tradition they'll

4313
02:35:08,150 --> 02:35:05,280
have a book that they just

4314
02:35:09,590 --> 02:35:08,160
they read but they forgot about

4315
02:35:10,550 --> 02:35:09,600
and then they'll go back and they'll say

4316
02:35:14,389 --> 02:35:10,560
oh

4317
02:35:17,990 --> 02:35:16,150
and this sangha i imagine that's a

4318
02:35:20,550 --> 02:35:18,000
community where people have similar

4319
02:35:22,950 --> 02:35:20,560
values what is it yeah so in the

4320
02:35:25,670 --> 02:35:22,960
buddhism um it's the sangha is the

4321
02:35:27,590 --> 02:35:25,680
community of people who are waking up

4322
02:35:29,590 --> 02:35:27,600
and helping each other stay awake

4323
02:35:31,349 --> 02:35:29,600
because buddhism is about waking up from

4324
02:35:32,150 --> 02:35:31,359
the illusion

4325
02:35:36,630 --> 02:35:32,160
yeah

4326
02:35:38,630 --> 02:35:36,640
that's where i am i want i i used to

4327
02:35:41,190 --> 02:35:38,640
envy people i don't i don't want to be

4328
02:35:42,710 --> 02:35:41,200
awake any longer and and you know

4329
02:35:44,950 --> 02:35:42,720
there's great research that says sleep

4330
02:35:46,550 --> 02:35:44,960
is helpful sleep is healthy sleep is

4331
02:35:48,630 --> 02:35:46,560
we're not sleeping enough i would like

4332
02:35:50,469 --> 02:35:48,640
to go back to sleep personally

4333
02:35:51,670 --> 02:35:50,479
i hear what you're saying yeah i

4334
02:35:54,309 --> 02:35:51,680
understand

4335
02:35:56,790 --> 02:35:54,319
but the sangha is there for you when you

4336
02:36:06,070 --> 02:35:56,800
go through the process of awakening

4337
02:36:09,750 --> 02:36:07,670
and those are those are those are the

4338
02:36:11,590 --> 02:36:09,760
three things that you need in buddhism

4339
02:36:12,630 --> 02:36:11,600
okay so that's what i'm saying is like

4340
02:36:15,110 --> 02:36:12,640
buddhism

4341
02:36:17,590 --> 02:36:15,120
to me looks very similar to

4342
02:36:19,510 --> 02:36:17,600
the thing that socrates suggests we do

4343
02:36:21,910 --> 02:36:19,520
at the end of the cave

4344
02:36:24,309 --> 02:36:21,920
it's this is an engaging kind of thing

4345
02:36:26,710 --> 02:36:24,319
like what you said participatory

4346
02:36:27,830 --> 02:36:26,720
so it involves other people you can't do

4347
02:36:29,429 --> 02:36:27,840
it alone

4348
02:36:31,190 --> 02:36:29,439
i also find that

4349
02:36:32,469 --> 02:36:31,200
so you mentioned the song is awakened

4350
02:36:34,630 --> 02:36:32,479
people but i find that the more i

4351
02:36:36,710 --> 02:36:34,640
interact with people in general the more

4352
02:36:38,230 --> 02:36:36,720
i go out the more it's not just my wife

4353
02:36:39,750 --> 02:36:38,240
because i pretty much only interact with

4354
02:36:41,190 --> 02:36:39,760
her because of

4355
02:36:44,070 --> 02:36:41,200
well for the past couple years because

4356
02:36:44,950 --> 02:36:44,080
of covid and the more that i see family

4357
02:36:50,950 --> 02:36:44,960
and

4358
02:36:52,790 --> 02:36:50,960
the the more it well that drastically

4359
02:36:53,830 --> 02:36:52,800
helps me but they're not people who i

4360
02:36:55,910 --> 02:36:53,840
would

4361
02:36:57,270 --> 02:36:55,920
consider to be awakened per se i just

4362
02:37:01,190 --> 02:36:57,280
say they're people

4363
02:37:03,190 --> 02:37:01,200
so is is am i not doing it correctly

4364
02:37:05,510 --> 02:37:03,200
no no i mean i think you're doing it

4365
02:37:07,830 --> 02:37:05,520
correctly because i think in buddhism

4366
02:37:10,469 --> 02:37:07,840
too anything can be a teaching like

4367
02:37:12,870 --> 02:37:10,479
dharma is the teaching whatever kind of

4368
02:37:14,550 --> 02:37:12,880
helps you it could be circumstances it

4369
02:37:16,550 --> 02:37:14,560
could be events it doesn't have to be a

4370
02:37:19,030 --> 02:37:16,560
book it doesn't have to be a song or a

4371
02:37:20,630 --> 02:37:19,040
movie or a person talking to you i think

4372
02:37:22,469 --> 02:37:20,640
that being around people though i mean

4373
02:37:24,389 --> 02:37:22,479
we have been through a lot through kovid

4374
02:37:26,469 --> 02:37:24,399
and i think just getting out and talking

4375
02:37:29,190 --> 02:37:26,479
to people we're naturally

4376
02:37:31,510 --> 02:37:29,200
we're beings who who like to be around

4377
02:37:33,670 --> 02:37:31,520
people and then like to have our space

4378
02:37:34,790 --> 02:37:33,680
right so i think that's natural it's

4379
02:37:36,950 --> 02:37:34,800
kind of like

4380
02:37:38,710 --> 02:37:36,960
eating we need to eat so we definitely

4381
02:37:41,590 --> 02:37:38,720
need to be around people and i think

4382
02:37:42,550 --> 02:37:41,600
that covid is has maybe caused a lot of

4383
02:37:45,590 --> 02:37:42,560
us to

4384
02:37:47,190 --> 02:37:45,600
be in the cave too long or something

4385
02:37:49,349 --> 02:37:47,200
literally are you an introvert you would

4386
02:37:51,510 --> 02:37:49,359
consider yourself to be an introvert

4387
02:37:53,990 --> 02:37:51,520
definitely i'm an introvert yeah

4388
02:37:55,750 --> 02:37:54,000
but um but i'm a good i'm an introvert

4389
02:37:59,510 --> 02:37:55,760
that's learned how to be an extrovert

4390
02:38:01,110 --> 02:37:59,520
because of my job same same yeah yeah

4391
02:38:02,230 --> 02:38:01,120
yeah okay i'm gonna tell you this and

4392
02:38:04,710 --> 02:38:02,240
but i'm not gonna i'm gonna take this

4393
02:38:05,510 --> 02:38:04,720
off the record so what happened to me

4394
02:38:09,030 --> 02:38:05,520
was

4395
02:38:10,870 --> 02:38:09,040
i i had it it's at this point that i

4396
02:38:12,870 --> 02:38:10,880
suggest you watch the carl fristen

4397
02:38:14,230 --> 02:38:12,880
episode i consider that to be the most

4398
02:38:15,110 --> 02:38:14,240
important of all the theories of

4399
02:38:17,030 --> 02:38:15,120
everything

4400
02:38:18,389 --> 02:38:17,040
videos mainly because it serves as a

4401
02:38:20,070 --> 02:38:18,399
cautionary tale

4402
02:38:22,070 --> 02:38:20,080
like mentioned in the beginning and also

4403
02:38:24,790 --> 02:38:22,080
because i don't like talking about this

4404
02:38:26,469 --> 02:38:24,800
experience and this may be the last time

4405
02:38:27,990 --> 02:38:26,479
that i do so so if you would like more

4406
02:38:30,710 --> 02:38:28,000
context then visit that link in the

4407
02:38:32,710 --> 02:38:30,720
description thank you and if you've

4408
02:38:34,230 --> 02:38:32,720
experienced something similar just know

4409
02:38:36,230 --> 02:38:34,240
that you're not alone

4410
02:38:39,110 --> 02:38:36,240
and that the more that people talk about

4411
02:38:42,150 --> 02:38:39,120
this sort of issue the less humiliation

4412
02:38:44,389 --> 02:38:42,160
and disrepute will be thrown around

4413
02:38:47,190 --> 02:38:44,399
because many many many more people have

4414
02:38:48,950 --> 02:38:47,200
experiences like this than you think

4415
02:38:51,429 --> 02:38:48,960
it's just that most people don't talk

4416
02:38:53,670 --> 02:38:51,439
about it at all because they're afraid

4417
02:38:55,429 --> 02:38:53,680
and being i tr i understand what it's

4418
02:38:57,990 --> 02:38:55,439
like to be afraid trust me

4419
02:38:59,510 --> 02:38:58,000
either way you are not alone

4420
02:39:01,110 --> 02:38:59,520
luckily i haven't had like i'm saying

4421
02:39:03,349 --> 02:39:01,120
luckily because i don't want any more

4422
02:39:04,710 --> 02:39:03,359
experiences like that that shattered me

4423
02:39:05,910 --> 02:39:04,720
i don't have the strength to go through

4424
02:39:08,469 --> 02:39:05,920
that or i think i don't have the

4425
02:39:09,670 --> 02:39:08,479
strength but anyway and hanging around

4426
02:39:11,110 --> 02:39:09,680
people and someone's helping so that's

4427
02:39:13,110 --> 02:39:11,120
an aside like jess we will take all of

4428
02:39:14,950 --> 02:39:13,120
that out but i just wanted you to know

4429
02:39:17,830 --> 02:39:14,960
that that's the context from where i'm

4430
02:39:19,990 --> 02:39:17,840
coming from i encourage that you hang

4431
02:39:21,830 --> 02:39:20,000
out with them those people because what

4432
02:39:23,990 --> 02:39:21,840
i found in my life too

4433
02:39:26,630 --> 02:39:24,000
was that a lot of the people that seem

4434
02:39:28,070 --> 02:39:26,640
to understand how being

4435
02:39:30,389 --> 02:39:28,080
like really being

4436
02:39:32,389 --> 02:39:30,399
human and good were people that weren't

4437
02:39:34,790 --> 02:39:32,399
philosophers you know they were people

4438
02:39:36,309 --> 02:39:34,800
who were i was involved in a homeschool

4439
02:39:38,150 --> 02:39:36,319
group with my kids

4440
02:39:41,190 --> 02:39:38,160
and these were just catholics who

4441
02:39:43,990 --> 02:39:41,200
believed pretty straight up

4442
02:39:45,590 --> 02:39:44,000
not complicated catholicism right so i

4443
02:39:47,750 --> 02:39:45,600
wouldn't and never talk to them about

4444
02:39:48,550 --> 02:39:47,760
the stuff i'm talking to you about and

4445
02:39:50,870 --> 02:39:48,560
um

4446
02:39:53,590 --> 02:39:50,880
that was as that was good for me and

4447
02:39:56,950 --> 02:39:53,600
that was good for my kids

4448
02:39:58,469 --> 02:39:56,960
so um i think i'd go to church

4449
02:40:00,630 --> 02:39:58,479
and a lot of my friends who are

4450
02:40:02,230 --> 02:40:00,640
intellectuals think i'm crazy

4451
02:40:04,469 --> 02:40:02,240
but i go

4452
02:40:05,830 --> 02:40:04,479
and i think that these things these

4453
02:40:09,510 --> 02:40:05,840
simple things

4454
02:40:14,389 --> 02:40:12,150
that's the aspect of religion that

4455
02:40:16,230 --> 02:40:14,399
that it's

4456
02:40:18,150 --> 02:40:16,240
it's not valued enough in the

4457
02:40:20,230 --> 02:40:18,160
irreligious circles so they'll say yeah

4458
02:40:22,710 --> 02:40:20,240
well like if they're going to ascribe

4459
02:40:24,469 --> 02:40:22,720
any salutary component to religion they

4460
02:40:26,870 --> 02:40:24,479
would say well it promotes community

4461
02:40:28,309 --> 02:40:26,880
yeah that's a huge huge huge yes you

4462
02:40:30,469 --> 02:40:28,319
have no clue

4463
02:40:32,230 --> 02:40:30,479
yeah and that's why i say the sangha

4464
02:40:34,309 --> 02:40:32,240
it's one of the three things it's called

4465
02:40:36,230 --> 02:40:34,319
the three jewels of buddhism they

4466
02:40:38,630 --> 02:40:36,240
definitely understand it

4467
02:40:40,389 --> 02:40:38,640
it's community

4468
02:40:42,630 --> 02:40:40,399
and did you know that in catholicism

4469
02:40:44,150 --> 02:40:42,640
it's actually considered a sacrament

4470
02:40:45,830 --> 02:40:44,160
community

4471
02:40:48,389 --> 02:40:45,840
what's a sacrament meaning oh a

4472
02:40:51,429 --> 02:40:48,399
sacrament means it's a um it's imbued

4473
02:40:53,510 --> 02:40:51,439
with the power of god

4474
02:40:55,429 --> 02:40:53,520
so community like a church community is

4475
02:40:59,190 --> 02:40:55,439
imbued with the power of god so i feel

4476
02:41:03,110 --> 02:40:59,200
like i found that in lots of different

4477
02:41:06,070 --> 02:41:04,710
okay we'll end on just a couple audience

4478
02:41:08,150 --> 02:41:06,080
questions and that's it that everybody

4479
02:41:11,270 --> 02:41:08,160
okay sure i know they're like

4480
02:41:13,110 --> 02:41:11,280
30 40 50 100 but we'll just get to a

4481
02:41:15,429 --> 02:41:13,120
couple that are interesting so this one

4482
02:41:17,750 --> 02:41:15,439
comes from giuliano vargas virtually all

4483
02:41:19,830 --> 02:41:17,760
contactees say that aliens

4484
02:41:21,990 --> 02:41:19,840
that the aliens themselves believe in a

4485
02:41:23,349 --> 02:41:22,000
supreme creator god or being

4486
02:41:24,870 --> 02:41:23,359
now i don't know if that's necessarily

4487
02:41:26,790 --> 02:41:24,880
true but regardless that's the premise

4488
02:41:29,110 --> 02:41:26,800
of this question should we try to

4489
02:41:32,870 --> 02:41:29,120
reconcile our current religion with the

4490
02:41:34,790 --> 02:41:32,880
new knowledge with this new knowledge or

4491
02:41:37,750 --> 02:41:34,800
just seek to be spiritual by believing

4492
02:41:40,710 --> 02:41:37,760
in god and doing good deeds

4493
02:41:43,510 --> 02:41:40,720
um yeah so my personal opinion is that

4494
02:41:45,270 --> 02:41:43,520
since we don't know the first part of

4495
02:41:46,309 --> 02:41:45,280
his question we don't know that to be

4496
02:41:48,309 --> 02:41:46,319
factual

4497
02:41:50,469 --> 02:41:48,319
um i think that

4498
02:41:52,710 --> 02:41:50,479
um doing good deeds and having a

4499
02:41:55,590 --> 02:41:52,720
community of support

4500
02:41:58,870 --> 02:41:55,600
is what in my opinion is what we should

4501
02:42:00,469 --> 02:41:58,880
be doing i think that's good okay how do

4502
02:42:02,790 --> 02:42:00,479
you reconcile your catholic views with

4503
02:42:04,630 --> 02:42:02,800
the phenomenon and do you struggle to

4504
02:42:05,510 --> 02:42:04,640
keep faith when dealing with something

4505
02:42:07,349 --> 02:42:05,520
like

4506
02:42:09,429 --> 02:42:07,359
this phenomenon according to jack vale's

4507
02:42:11,349 --> 02:42:09,439
theories which acts like a quote-unquote

4508
02:42:12,710 --> 02:42:11,359
control system this question comes from

4509
02:42:15,830 --> 02:42:12,720
number two

4510
02:42:18,469 --> 02:42:15,840
sure yeah that's a great question so um

4511
02:42:20,150 --> 02:42:18,479
yeah it's only strengthened my faith so

4512
02:42:23,190 --> 02:42:20,160
i am um

4513
02:42:25,349 --> 02:42:23,200
i'm a you know i study religion

4514
02:42:26,790 --> 02:42:25,359
but i am also religious

4515
02:42:29,110 --> 02:42:26,800
but i always have been

4516
02:42:31,190 --> 02:42:29,120
and this has only

4517
02:42:32,870 --> 02:42:31,200
reinforced my faith

4518
02:42:34,630 --> 02:42:32,880
um

4519
02:42:36,550 --> 02:42:34,640
so the question is

4520
02:42:37,670 --> 02:42:36,560
i think the question that this person

4521
02:42:38,710 --> 02:42:37,680
asks

4522
02:42:43,110 --> 02:42:38,720
is

4523
02:42:45,190 --> 02:42:43,120
many people by the way also people who

4524
02:42:47,510 --> 02:42:45,200
are part of congress have asked me

4525
02:42:50,550 --> 02:42:47,520
questions like this like um and

4526
02:42:52,550 --> 02:42:50,560
journalists like won't this shatter

4527
02:42:56,150 --> 02:42:52,560
the belief systems of religious people

4528
02:42:57,750 --> 02:42:56,160
and my my answer is not at all i talk on

4529
02:42:59,510 --> 02:42:57,760
catholic radio a lot

4530
02:43:00,309 --> 02:42:59,520
um like on the drew mariani show and

4531
02:43:01,510 --> 02:43:00,319
such

4532
02:43:08,389 --> 02:43:01,520
and

4533
02:43:11,030 --> 02:43:08,399
with people at the vatican um that

4534
02:43:14,389 --> 02:43:11,040
christianity already has within it as

4535
02:43:16,070 --> 02:43:14,399
well as islam and as well as judaism

4536
02:43:17,750 --> 02:43:16,080
these at these three religions and if

4537
02:43:18,950 --> 02:43:17,760
you look at hinduism as well and

4538
02:43:21,750 --> 02:43:18,960
buddhism you know these are the

4539
02:43:23,910 --> 02:43:21,760
traditional religions um you'll see that

4540
02:43:25,830 --> 02:43:23,920
there's already categories there are

4541
02:43:27,750 --> 02:43:25,840
already categories for belief in

4542
02:43:29,349 --> 02:43:27,760
extraterrestrial beings and that you

4543
02:43:31,110 --> 02:43:29,359
know the the creed of the catholic

4544
02:43:32,870 --> 02:43:31,120
church basically says you know god is

4545
02:43:35,429 --> 02:43:32,880
creator of all that is visible and

4546
02:43:36,630 --> 02:43:35,439
invisible and in within that invisible

4547
02:43:39,110 --> 02:43:36,640
category

4548
02:43:41,270 --> 02:43:39,120
john paul ii said angels exist and you

4549
02:43:44,230 --> 02:43:41,280
know things like that so um i know a lot

4550
02:43:46,870 --> 02:43:44,240
of catholics like um if you look at um

4551
02:43:48,710 --> 02:43:46,880
would you baptize an extraterrestrial by

4552
02:43:51,670 --> 02:43:48,720
uh brother guy

4553
02:43:54,150 --> 02:43:51,680
and uh father mueller you'll see that

4554
02:43:55,670 --> 02:43:54,160
they say they believe that if there are

4555
02:43:57,190 --> 02:43:55,680
extraterrestrials that they're created

4556
02:44:00,309 --> 02:43:57,200
by god

4557
02:44:02,630 --> 02:44:00,319
so it there's it's not an either or

4558
02:44:05,110 --> 02:44:02,640
position as i look at it there's no it's

4559
02:44:09,110 --> 02:44:05,120
not a question of either this or that i

4560
02:44:11,429 --> 02:44:10,550
why do you think the hitchhiker effect

4561
02:44:12,630 --> 02:44:11,439
occurs

4562
02:44:14,550 --> 02:44:12,640
what have you heard

4563
02:44:16,950 --> 02:44:14,560
okay so the hitchhiker effect for those

4564
02:44:19,990 --> 02:44:16,960
who don't know is this idea that

4565
02:44:22,150 --> 02:44:20,000
um they're around people who have these

4566
02:44:23,910 --> 02:44:22,160
experiences like a say they see a lot of

4567
02:44:25,590 --> 02:44:23,920
orbs and they have

4568
02:44:27,030 --> 02:44:25,600
paranormal experiences and things like

4569
02:44:30,550 --> 02:44:27,040
that and that this is kind of a

4570
02:44:32,469 --> 02:44:30,560
contagious experience in that it'll

4571
02:44:35,670 --> 02:44:32,479
it'll go on it'll hitchhike onto a

4572
02:44:37,750 --> 02:44:35,680
person and head home with them um yeah

4573
02:44:39,670 --> 02:44:37,760
so i knew a lot of researchers who saw

4574
02:44:42,389 --> 02:44:39,680
this happen i've had friends who were

4575
02:44:45,830 --> 02:44:42,399
researchers who wouldn't go to places

4576
02:44:47,269 --> 02:44:45,840
considered hot places of ufo activity

4577
02:44:49,030 --> 02:44:47,279
because they didn't want it to come home

4578
02:44:50,790 --> 02:44:49,040
with them um

4579
02:44:53,750 --> 02:44:50,800
what do i think about it

4580
02:44:56,950 --> 02:44:53,760
i mean that's i don't know

4581
02:44:59,830 --> 02:44:56,960
it's really strange um do i believe that

4582
02:45:01,990 --> 02:44:59,840
it's real definitely i mean it does i

4583
02:45:04,389 --> 02:45:02,000
have no clue what it is um that do i

4584
02:45:05,670 --> 02:45:04,399
think that is mental or objective i

4585
02:45:08,070 --> 02:45:05,680
can't tell you

4586
02:45:10,230 --> 02:45:08,080
but do i believe that actually happens i

4587
02:45:12,469 --> 02:45:10,240
know enough scientists who

4588
02:45:14,950 --> 02:45:12,479
will stay away from hot places because

4589
02:45:16,790 --> 02:45:14,960
of it yeah

4590
02:45:17,990 --> 02:45:16,800
so you mentioned that some of the people

4591
02:45:20,150 --> 02:45:18,000
who would have the hardest time or the

4592
02:45:21,750 --> 02:45:20,160
humanists i think you mentioned that

4593
02:45:23,349 --> 02:45:21,760
well you mentioned it here but i'm using

4594
02:45:24,870 --> 02:45:23,359
the word humanist right now christians

4595
02:45:26,630 --> 02:45:24,880
believe and they you can see this in the

4596
02:45:29,110 --> 02:45:26,640
comments section i'm sure you're aware

4597
02:45:31,349 --> 02:45:29,120
of considering the alien beings to be

4598
02:45:32,710 --> 02:45:31,359
angels or demons but i'm wondering is

4599
02:45:34,950 --> 02:45:32,720
there a third option

4600
02:45:37,030 --> 02:45:34,960
yeah it's for sure yeah like what else

4601
02:45:39,910 --> 02:45:37,040
are there besides angels and demons yeah

4602
02:45:42,150 --> 02:45:39,920
so i mean we have exo so people who are

4603
02:45:44,070 --> 02:45:42,160
doing like looking at habitable planets

4604
02:45:45,830 --> 02:45:44,080
like exoplanets and things like that you

4605
02:45:47,990 --> 02:45:45,840
know these are straight-up scientists

4606
02:45:50,309 --> 02:45:48,000
who are doing this work and they're out

4607
02:45:53,269 --> 02:45:50,319
there just finding out if there's

4608
02:45:55,030 --> 02:45:53,279
habitable planets or life out there even

4609
02:45:56,790 --> 02:45:55,040
and i think that that's the way to look

4610
02:46:00,309 --> 02:45:56,800
at it i think that that has nothing to

4611
02:46:02,230 --> 02:46:00,319
do with the idea of these are angels or

4612
02:46:03,910 --> 02:46:02,240
demons we're just looking for

4613
02:46:06,309 --> 02:46:03,920
potential

4614
02:46:08,469 --> 02:46:06,319
planets that have even moons or even

4615
02:46:10,710 --> 02:46:08,479
asteroids that have you know life on

4616
02:46:13,110 --> 02:46:10,720
them and i think that that's a

4617
02:46:15,349 --> 02:46:13,120
scientific endeavor and that has really

4618
02:46:17,670 --> 02:46:15,359
nothing to do with religion whatsoever

4619
02:46:19,349 --> 02:46:17,680
it just has to do with exploration you

4620
02:46:20,950 --> 02:46:19,359
know and that's what we're doing you

4621
02:46:22,950 --> 02:46:20,960
know we're kind of an exploratory

4622
02:46:24,710 --> 02:46:22,960
species and we're now heading out into

4623
02:46:26,790 --> 02:46:24,720
space and exploring that and that's the

4624
02:46:28,469 --> 02:46:26,800
third option

4625
02:46:30,070 --> 02:46:28,479
the two religions that come up plenty

4626
02:46:32,630 --> 02:46:30,080
when studying this phenomenon is

4627
02:46:34,870 --> 02:46:32,640
gnosticism so i don't know why

4628
02:46:36,630 --> 02:46:34,880
that gets mentioned simultaneously with

4629
02:46:37,670 --> 02:46:36,640
the phenomenon but i want to know what

4630
02:46:39,349 --> 02:46:37,680
your thoughts are and then raw

4631
02:46:41,269 --> 02:46:39,359
secretionism if i'm even pronouncing

4632
02:46:43,590 --> 02:46:41,279
that correctly yeah why yeah i don't

4633
02:46:46,630 --> 02:46:43,600
know what the second one is sure okay

4634
02:46:50,070 --> 02:46:46,640
raw secretionism so raw secretionism is

4635
02:46:51,429 --> 02:46:50,080
a mystical element um tradition within

4636
02:46:53,670 --> 02:46:51,439
christianity

4637
02:46:55,510 --> 02:46:53,680
that is it's called the holy cross the

4638
02:46:58,710 --> 02:46:55,520
rosy cross okay

4639
02:47:01,269 --> 02:46:58,720
and rosie crucianism and so a lot of the

4640
02:47:03,269 --> 02:47:01,279
medical college people happen to be

4641
02:47:05,110 --> 02:47:03,279
um secretions and in fact the term

4642
02:47:07,349 --> 02:47:05,120
invisible college comes from the history

4643
02:47:09,510 --> 02:47:07,359
of secretionism and so this is a

4644
02:47:12,950 --> 02:47:09,520
mystical tradition within

4645
02:47:14,389 --> 02:47:12,960
um european history where you can

4646
02:47:16,790 --> 02:47:14,399
identify

4647
02:47:19,830 --> 02:47:16,800
scientists who are also

4648
02:47:22,309 --> 02:47:19,840
alchemists who are also interested in

4649
02:47:23,990 --> 02:47:22,319
non-human intelligences and things like

4650
02:47:26,309 --> 02:47:24,000
that and getting in touch with angels

4651
02:47:29,030 --> 02:47:26,319
and entities so there's a whole history

4652
02:47:31,510 --> 02:47:29,040
of this and so that is one tradition

4653
02:47:33,750 --> 02:47:31,520
that a lot of people identify

4654
02:47:36,469 --> 02:47:33,760
with you you know people who are

4655
02:47:38,870 --> 02:47:36,479
involved in ufo research um the other

4656
02:47:41,750 --> 02:47:38,880
one is gnosticism and narcissism is kind

4657
02:47:44,550 --> 02:47:41,760
of like pre prior secretionism so there

4658
02:47:46,469 --> 02:47:44,560
were um there were jewish yeah so there

4659
02:47:47,990 --> 02:47:46,479
were jewish gnostics and then there were

4660
02:47:49,670 --> 02:47:48,000
christian gnostics so narcissism

4661
02:47:51,750 --> 02:47:49,680
basically is a greek word that means

4662
02:47:53,670 --> 02:47:51,760
gnosis it means knowledge

4663
02:47:55,750 --> 02:47:53,680
and it's knowledge of

4664
02:47:57,349 --> 02:47:55,760
it i always i explain this to my

4665
02:47:59,910 --> 02:47:57,359
students like this

4666
02:48:05,190 --> 02:48:00,790
so

4667
02:48:07,670 --> 02:48:05,200
basketball player okay

4668
02:48:09,990 --> 02:48:07,680
he's he's gnostic with respect to

4669
02:48:12,150 --> 02:48:10,000
basketball okay

4670
02:48:14,230 --> 02:48:12,160
i know about the history of basketball

4671
02:48:16,469 --> 02:48:14,240
but i'm a terrible basketball player

4672
02:48:18,630 --> 02:48:16,479
therefore i have information about

4673
02:48:19,910 --> 02:48:18,640
basketball but i'm not gnostic about it

4674
02:48:21,510 --> 02:48:19,920
i don't have gnosis i don't have

4675
02:48:24,469 --> 02:48:21,520
knowledge of it like experiential

4676
02:48:27,190 --> 02:48:24,479
knowledge right so it's an internally

4677
02:48:30,070 --> 02:48:27,200
it's not narcissism is knowledge that

4678
02:48:31,110 --> 02:48:30,080
you have intimately right so after

4679
02:48:32,630 --> 02:48:31,120
baking

4680
02:48:34,710 --> 02:48:32,640
an apple pie

4681
02:48:36,230 --> 02:48:34,720
a hundred times you're going to be

4682
02:48:38,230 --> 02:48:36,240
gnostic about it

4683
02:48:40,150 --> 02:48:38,240
okay okay so that sounds like the

4684
02:48:41,590 --> 02:48:40,160
propositional versus the participatory

4685
02:48:44,230 --> 02:48:41,600
that we referenced earlier or is that

4686
02:48:47,030 --> 02:48:44,240
different that's exactly it yeah so it's

4687
02:48:49,590 --> 02:48:47,040
an internal intrinsic knowledge

4688
02:48:51,429 --> 02:48:49,600
um but you you develop it you might

4689
02:48:53,670 --> 02:48:51,439
start developing it propositionally but

4690
02:48:55,830 --> 02:48:53,680
then it becomes gnostic

4691
02:48:57,750 --> 02:48:55,840
it becomes participatory okay so it's

4692
02:48:59,190 --> 02:48:57,760
kind of like an ingredient you know an

4693
02:49:00,230 --> 02:48:59,200
agree uh not a

4694
02:49:08,070 --> 02:49:00,240
recipe

4695
02:49:10,630 --> 02:49:08,080
apple pie it's not gnostic i'm not a

4696
02:49:13,110 --> 02:49:10,640
gnostic baker but after i've made it 100

4697
02:49:15,110 --> 02:49:13,120
times i can get rid of the recipe

4698
02:49:16,950 --> 02:49:15,120
see it says propositional to

4699
02:49:18,950 --> 02:49:16,960
participatory

4700
02:49:20,710 --> 02:49:18,960
um that's narcissism

4701
02:49:22,870 --> 02:49:20,720
narcissism is also there are different

4702
02:49:24,389 --> 02:49:22,880
forms of gnosticism um there was

4703
02:49:27,510 --> 02:49:24,399
christian gnosticism like i said in

4704
02:49:30,230 --> 02:49:27,520
jewish narcissism um and the christian

4705
02:49:32,150 --> 02:49:30,240
gnostics were like mary magdalene

4706
02:49:34,790 --> 02:49:32,160
and these were people who

4707
02:49:37,910 --> 02:49:34,800
believed that they had a

4708
02:49:39,670 --> 02:49:37,920
uh an understanding of jesus and of god

4709
02:49:42,070 --> 02:49:39,680
that was intrinsic and that they would

4710
02:49:44,230 --> 02:49:42,080
pass on to others and they also had

4711
02:49:45,990 --> 02:49:44,240
ideas of um

4712
02:49:49,030 --> 02:49:46,000
like other worldly beings and things

4713
02:49:50,950 --> 02:49:49,040
like that so gnosticism was a tradition

4714
02:49:53,349 --> 02:49:50,960
that and still around by the way there

4715
02:49:55,590 --> 02:49:53,359
is a gnostic christian church today

4716
02:49:57,590 --> 02:49:55,600
and so there's only one

4717
02:50:00,230 --> 02:49:57,600
i believe that there are many but okay i

4718
02:50:02,790 --> 02:50:00,240
know i know of one so okay but a lot of

4719
02:50:05,429 --> 02:50:02,800
people call themselves gnostic

4720
02:50:07,429 --> 02:50:05,439
and this relates to the phenomenon

4721
02:50:09,670 --> 02:50:07,439
i think that people well first of all

4722
02:50:11,510 --> 02:50:09,680
secretionism is relates to the

4723
02:50:13,110 --> 02:50:11,520
phenomenon because

4724
02:50:14,469 --> 02:50:13,120
um

4725
02:50:16,630 --> 02:50:14,479
a lot of the people in the invisible

4726
02:50:18,550 --> 02:50:16,640
college are in in some ways very

4727
02:50:20,550 --> 02:50:18,560
secretion like some of them are overtly

4728
02:50:22,950 --> 02:50:20,560
secretion so they're part of this this

4729
02:50:25,110 --> 02:50:22,960
tradition the invisible college itself

4730
02:50:27,510 --> 02:50:25,120
the name is very secretion it's a roast

4731
02:50:30,710 --> 02:50:27,520
secretion term

4732
02:50:32,309 --> 02:50:30,720
um so that's how it relates

4733
02:50:35,590 --> 02:50:32,319
it's also a mystic tradition which i

4734
02:50:39,910 --> 02:50:37,190
is there any relationship between

4735
02:50:43,990 --> 02:50:39,920
kurzweil's technological singularity and

4736
02:50:45,910 --> 02:50:44,000
the omega point and uaps

4737
02:50:48,150 --> 02:50:45,920
okay um

4738
02:50:49,590 --> 02:50:48,160
wow that's a hard question okay so

4739
02:50:50,630 --> 02:50:49,600
sherdon

4740
02:50:55,349 --> 02:50:50,640
is

4741
02:50:58,150 --> 02:50:55,359
newest sphere

4742
02:50:59,030 --> 02:50:58,160
and the relationship is that

4743
02:51:03,110 --> 02:50:59,040
both

4744
02:51:05,190 --> 02:51:03,120
and chardon

4745
02:51:09,190 --> 02:51:05,200
are looking at

4746
02:51:11,590 --> 02:51:09,200
another kind of um atmosphere basically

4747
02:51:12,630 --> 02:51:11,600
um that links actually all of us

4748
02:51:15,110 --> 02:51:12,640
together

4749
02:51:16,950 --> 02:51:15,120
but it's a network and it's a network

4750
02:51:19,510 --> 02:51:16,960
that is

4751
02:51:21,510 --> 02:51:19,520
not neces he calls it the newest fear

4752
02:51:24,710 --> 02:51:21,520
it's it's a biosphere it's kind of like

4753
02:51:26,630 --> 02:51:24,720
a biosphere but it's linked by it

4754
02:51:28,870 --> 02:51:26,640
appears to me it's linked somewhat

4755
02:51:31,269 --> 02:51:28,880
telepathically or

4756
02:51:33,990 --> 02:51:31,279
uh it's like a neural network but

4757
02:51:35,830 --> 02:51:34,000
there's there's it's not it doesn't have

4758
02:51:37,830 --> 02:51:35,840
a platform like

4759
02:51:39,670 --> 02:51:37,840
you know like digital platform

4760
02:51:41,349 --> 02:51:39,680
it's a different sort of platform that

4761
02:51:42,309 --> 02:51:41,359
has formed on its own

4762
02:51:44,550 --> 02:51:42,319
um

4763
02:51:46,950 --> 02:51:44,560
biologically so

4764
02:51:49,269 --> 02:51:46,960
but it's it's a fascinating thing

4765
02:51:52,550 --> 02:51:49,279
and if you look at kurzweil's work too

4766
02:51:55,110 --> 02:51:52,560
especially the intro to singularity uh

4767
02:51:57,750 --> 02:51:55,120
that looks fairly spiritual you know he

4768
02:51:59,830 --> 02:51:57,760
talks about it as if he also has this

4769
02:52:01,910 --> 02:51:59,840
vision that's like a palpable vision

4770
02:52:03,910 --> 02:52:01,920
that he has so if you're if so if any of

4771
02:52:06,469 --> 02:52:03,920
your listeners are interested in that go

4772
02:52:08,309 --> 02:52:06,479
back and reread that first part the

4773
02:52:11,750 --> 02:52:08,319
first the introduction and the first

4774
02:52:16,070 --> 02:52:11,760
chapter of the singularity and it looks

4775
02:52:17,670 --> 02:52:16,080
to me similar to books about this that

4776
02:52:20,230 --> 02:52:17,680
have happened in the past i mean it's

4777
02:52:23,269 --> 02:52:20,240
very spiritual let's put it that way um

4778
02:52:24,469 --> 02:52:23,279
his the way he's writing looks

4779
02:52:26,790 --> 02:52:24,479
um

4780
02:52:28,790 --> 02:52:26,800
it's fraught with kind of a spiritualism

4781
02:52:30,870 --> 02:52:28,800
to it

4782
02:52:32,870 --> 02:52:30,880
and how does this relate to ufos if at

4783
02:52:35,429 --> 02:52:32,880
all

4784
02:52:36,630 --> 02:52:35,439
okay so does it relate to ufos i think

4785
02:52:39,030 --> 02:52:36,640
that

4786
02:52:41,910 --> 02:52:39,040
no not necessarily i mean if you could

4787
02:52:44,309 --> 02:52:41,920
say that the kind of if you could look

4788
02:52:47,110 --> 02:52:44,319
at this from an evolutionary standpoint

4789
02:52:50,630 --> 02:52:47,120
such as carl jung does um

4790
02:52:53,269 --> 02:52:50,640
and also in my opinion so does

4791
02:52:56,469 --> 02:52:53,279
uh chardon okay what you're looking at

4792
02:52:59,190 --> 02:52:56,479
is you're looking at kind of like a a

4793
02:53:01,910 --> 02:52:59,200
spiritual progression of humanity okay

4794
02:53:03,110 --> 02:53:01,920
so this is what they're they're saying

4795
02:53:04,870 --> 02:53:03,120
they're basically saying that we're

4796
02:53:07,670 --> 02:53:04,880
progressing into

4797
02:53:09,590 --> 02:53:07,680
um a new state of being human and it

4798
02:53:11,910 --> 02:53:09,600
includes this network it includes a

4799
02:53:13,910 --> 02:53:11,920
network in which we can communicate with

4800
02:53:16,389 --> 02:53:13,920
each other on a different level than the

4801
02:53:19,510 --> 02:53:16,399
way in which language is used it's a

4802
02:53:21,670 --> 02:53:19,520
different sort of language and does that

4803
02:53:23,190 --> 02:53:21,680
how does that correspond to ufos it so

4804
02:53:25,750 --> 02:53:23,200
happens to

4805
02:53:28,309 --> 02:53:25,760
be at simultaneous

4806
02:53:31,190 --> 02:53:28,319
with what we call kind of in the in the

4807
02:53:33,429 --> 02:53:31,200
20th century the flying saucer right so

4808
02:53:35,990 --> 02:53:33,439
we see these these kinds of things and

4809
02:53:37,590 --> 02:53:36,000
so you called this a new archetype right

4810
02:53:39,670 --> 02:53:37,600
the image of the fine sauce or a new

4811
02:53:42,710 --> 02:53:39,680
archetype so you can say that these kind

4812
02:53:44,790 --> 02:53:42,720
of happen at the same time and are they

4813
02:53:46,550 --> 02:53:44,800
related they're related in this way

4814
02:53:49,349 --> 02:53:46,560
they're related in the sense that there

4815
02:53:52,230 --> 02:53:49,359
is a a lot of people experience a

4816
02:53:53,349 --> 02:53:52,240
spiritual transformation when they they

4817
02:53:54,950 --> 02:53:53,359
encounter

4818
02:53:55,830 --> 02:53:54,960
or see ufos

4819
02:53:57,269 --> 02:53:55,840
um

4820
02:54:03,990 --> 02:53:57,279
the

4821
02:54:07,429 --> 02:54:04,000
are also conceived of as being spiritual

4822
02:54:09,510 --> 02:54:07,439
in nature as well okay so um part of the

4823
02:54:10,870 --> 02:54:09,520
people that i'm talking with

4824
02:54:12,950 --> 02:54:10,880
today

4825
02:54:15,429 --> 02:54:12,960
and are people who

4826
02:54:17,590 --> 02:54:15,439
believe that there is there are

4827
02:54:20,469 --> 02:54:17,600
different types of networks there's the

4828
02:54:21,830 --> 02:54:20,479
network that we call the

4829
02:54:23,910 --> 02:54:21,840
internet right the digital

4830
02:54:25,990 --> 02:54:23,920
infrastructure the internet of things

4831
02:54:27,910 --> 02:54:26,000
there's going to be a biological network

4832
02:54:29,429 --> 02:54:27,920
now that we're you know the internet of

4833
02:54:31,190 --> 02:54:29,439
things is actually somewhat of a

4834
02:54:34,550 --> 02:54:31,200
biological network as well because we

4835
02:54:36,230 --> 02:54:34,560
interact with it physiologically um

4836
02:54:39,990 --> 02:54:36,240
but then there's another network that's

4837
02:54:41,910 --> 02:54:40,000
separate from that and humans have been

4838
02:54:44,389 --> 02:54:41,920
on that network as well but they don't

4839
02:54:46,630 --> 02:54:44,399
identify it as such so

4840
02:54:48,469 --> 02:54:46,640
part of what i'm doing now is i'm kind

4841
02:54:50,389 --> 02:54:48,479
of like working out how people are

4842
02:54:52,710 --> 02:54:50,399
looking at this thing they called they

4843
02:54:54,950 --> 02:54:52,720
call a separate network than the network

4844
02:54:56,309 --> 02:54:54,960
that we hook into physically and

4845
02:54:57,830 --> 02:54:56,319
materially

4846
02:54:59,510 --> 02:54:57,840
you use the words

4847
02:55:01,429 --> 02:54:59,520
new when referring to jung and the

4848
02:55:03,269 --> 02:55:01,439
archetype that you consider ufos to be a

4849
02:55:05,190 --> 02:55:03,279
new archetype but my understanding of

4850
02:55:06,790 --> 02:55:05,200
archetypes is that there's a timeless

4851
02:55:08,870 --> 02:55:06,800
nature to them and that the

4852
02:55:11,030 --> 02:55:08,880
representations can be new

4853
02:55:13,030 --> 02:55:11,040
like we could all be orbiting the same

4854
02:55:14,710 --> 02:55:13,040
object and representing it differently

4855
02:55:16,710 --> 02:55:14,720
but the object itself that's trying to

4856
02:55:18,630 --> 02:55:16,720
be represented isn't new so did you

4857
02:55:20,230 --> 02:55:18,640
actually say that there was a new object

4858
02:55:22,230 --> 02:55:20,240
somehow

4859
02:55:24,950 --> 02:55:22,240
no he didn't necessarily what he said

4860
02:55:26,469 --> 02:55:24,960
was that this was a new um

4861
02:55:27,910 --> 02:55:26,479
he didn't even call it a religion he

4862
02:55:30,469 --> 02:55:27,920
called it a new myth

4863
02:55:32,309 --> 02:55:30,479
but not the myth you know not

4864
02:55:33,670 --> 02:55:32,319
the type of myth that we see when we say

4865
02:55:35,190 --> 02:55:33,680
oh greek myth or something like that

4866
02:55:37,349 --> 02:55:35,200
which basically are religions you know

4867
02:55:39,510 --> 02:55:37,359
if you look at greek myth that this was

4868
02:55:42,150 --> 02:55:39,520
religion for weeks back in that time

4869
02:55:45,349 --> 02:55:42,160
period so um

4870
02:55:48,309 --> 02:55:45,359
yeah so i think that is it new um it

4871
02:55:50,870 --> 02:55:48,319
doesn't look to be new um but the ways

4872
02:55:52,870 --> 02:55:50,880
in which humans engage with it i think

4873
02:55:55,190 --> 02:55:52,880
are new absolutely

4874
02:55:57,830 --> 02:55:55,200
i see amazing okay so what do you make

4875
02:56:01,670 --> 02:55:57,840
of the recent ufo hearings

4876
02:56:04,150 --> 02:56:01,680
yeah so i i i watched them and um

4877
02:56:06,710 --> 02:56:04,160
i found them to be interesting

4878
02:56:08,469 --> 02:56:06,720
i don't have a lot to say about them in

4879
02:56:11,110 --> 02:56:08,479
the sense that you know

4880
02:56:13,830 --> 02:56:11,120
the specifics you know do i think that's

4881
02:56:16,309 --> 02:56:13,840
you know we've moved ahead with them um

4882
02:56:17,110 --> 02:56:16,319
with the topic of ufos and things like

4883
02:56:21,269 --> 02:56:17,120
that

4884
02:56:22,630 --> 02:56:21,279
uh

4885
02:56:24,070 --> 02:56:22,640
um

4886
02:56:25,750 --> 02:56:24,080
here give me some time because i have

4887
02:56:27,750 --> 02:56:25,760
thought about this but of course now

4888
02:56:29,429 --> 02:56:27,760
i've blanked out on it i can't remember

4889
02:56:30,870 --> 02:56:29,439
what i was going to say

4890
02:56:32,469 --> 02:56:30,880
okay i'll give you some i'll give you

4891
02:56:33,830 --> 02:56:32,479
some time so do you want me to just be

4892
02:56:36,389 --> 02:56:33,840
silent while you think

4893
02:56:42,309 --> 02:56:36,399
yeah just give me some silent time to

4894
02:56:47,830 --> 02:56:43,750
all right

4895
02:56:53,750 --> 02:56:50,309
me looking at this okay looking at these

4896
02:56:55,110 --> 02:56:53,760
hearings um and based on my experience

4897
02:56:56,790 --> 02:56:55,120
of the last

4898
02:57:00,230 --> 02:56:56,800
few years well more than a few years

4899
02:57:02,150 --> 02:57:00,240
maybe six or seven years where in i

4900
02:57:03,030 --> 02:57:02,160
identified what i'd call like a fight

4901
02:57:05,349 --> 02:57:03,040
club

4902
02:57:08,469 --> 02:57:05,359
of people who are involved in you know

4903
02:57:10,070 --> 02:57:08,479
the study of uaps and ufos

4904
02:57:12,110 --> 02:57:10,080
and what i mean by fight club is i mean

4905
02:57:14,309 --> 02:57:12,120
that people these people are

4906
02:57:15,910 --> 02:57:14,319
compartmentalized and they don't talk to

4907
02:57:18,070 --> 02:57:15,920
one another

4908
02:57:21,190 --> 02:57:18,080
i can't see how a hearing a

4909
02:57:23,349 --> 02:57:21,200
congressional hearing is going to

4910
02:57:24,950 --> 02:57:23,359
pierce any of the information within

4911
02:57:26,870 --> 02:57:24,960
that fight club i think what's happening

4912
02:57:29,429 --> 02:57:26,880
is that there's a recognition that there

4913
02:57:31,510 --> 02:57:29,439
is this this group of people who do this

4914
02:57:33,590 --> 02:57:31,520
kind of study they probably you know

4915
02:57:35,110 --> 02:57:33,600
they're probably different factions in

4916
02:57:38,150 --> 02:57:35,120
fact there are different factions and

4917
02:57:40,710 --> 02:57:38,160
groups of them doing pretty high level

4918
02:57:42,710 --> 02:57:40,720
study of this stuff but they're not

4919
02:57:43,670 --> 02:57:42,720
talking to each other

4920
02:57:45,429 --> 02:57:43,680
okay

4921
02:57:47,590 --> 02:57:45,439
um they're not talking to each other

4922
02:57:49,510 --> 02:57:47,600
because that's how they've been trained

4923
02:57:52,389 --> 02:57:49,520
so so whereas you know we've already

4924
02:57:54,469 --> 02:57:52,399
talked you and i about academics and

4925
02:57:56,070 --> 02:57:54,479
this kind of academic ethos of sharing

4926
02:57:58,070 --> 02:57:56,080
our sources to

4927
02:58:00,630 --> 02:57:58,080
further and progress knowledge

4928
02:58:02,550 --> 02:58:00,640
okay this is this is actually a method

4929
02:58:05,750 --> 02:58:02,560
and we believe in it and we even believe

4930
02:58:07,910 --> 02:58:05,760
that this is right okay well this is you

4931
02:58:09,830 --> 02:58:07,920
know and for better or worse it could be

4932
02:58:11,510 --> 02:58:09,840
you know i don't i now i i was so

4933
02:58:14,389 --> 02:58:11,520
surprised to hear that

4934
02:58:16,469 --> 02:58:14,399
well i shouldn't have been surprised

4935
02:58:18,790 --> 02:58:16,479
the the fight club

4936
02:58:19,670 --> 02:58:18,800
um and the compartmentalization of these

4937
02:58:23,510 --> 02:58:19,680
groups

4938
02:58:25,830 --> 02:58:23,520
their knowledge okay

4939
02:58:27,510 --> 02:58:25,840
but it doesn't work in the same way that

4940
02:58:30,230 --> 02:58:27,520
we think democratic

4941
02:58:31,349 --> 02:58:30,240
progression of knowledge works does that

4942
02:58:33,510 --> 02:58:31,359
make sense

4943
02:58:36,150 --> 02:58:33,520
it works differently it works almost the

4944
02:58:38,070 --> 02:58:36,160
opposite so when i see the hearings i

4945
02:58:40,309 --> 02:58:38,080
hear that

4946
02:58:42,070 --> 02:58:40,319
it's a very it's i i think i posted

4947
02:58:43,590 --> 02:58:42,080
something on twitter where i said this

4948
02:58:46,550 --> 02:58:43,600
isn't the valet

4949
02:58:48,230 --> 02:58:46,560
level of talking about the topic right

4950
02:58:49,110 --> 02:58:48,240
it's not gonna get that way it won't get

4951
02:58:52,870 --> 02:58:49,120
that way

4952
02:58:54,950 --> 02:58:52,880
maybe ever okay we can't expect it to so

4953
02:58:57,030 --> 02:58:54,960
for what it was

4954
02:58:59,429 --> 02:58:57,040
um

4955
02:59:01,910 --> 02:58:59,439
it was it was okay you know for what it

4956
02:59:04,710 --> 02:59:01,920
was it was okay it was something that

4957
02:59:07,429 --> 02:59:04,720
recognizes at least and modifies the

4958
02:59:11,030 --> 02:59:07,439
stigma that's been attached to

4959
02:59:13,429 --> 02:59:11,040
ufos for the past 50 years okay and

4960
02:59:15,190 --> 02:59:13,439
that's a good thing that's good for me

4961
02:59:17,190 --> 02:59:15,200
because i wrote about it

4962
02:59:19,429 --> 02:59:17,200
and it's good for other academics who

4963
02:59:22,070 --> 02:59:19,439
want to go in and and study it it's good

4964
02:59:23,590 --> 02:59:22,080
for people who've seen ufos and have

4965
02:59:26,389 --> 02:59:23,600
felt like they couldn't tell anyone

4966
02:59:28,630 --> 02:59:26,399
about it so it's good in that way okay

4967
02:59:30,230 --> 02:59:28,640
um but is it you know frankly i think

4968
02:59:32,389 --> 02:59:30,240
that the fight club

4969
02:59:34,550 --> 02:59:32,399
of compartmentalized people who study

4970
02:59:36,790 --> 02:59:34,560
this is going to continue probably get

4971
02:59:38,230 --> 02:59:36,800
more funding even now because of this

4972
02:59:40,550 --> 02:59:38,240
but that's what i see

4973
02:59:43,670 --> 02:59:40,560
as the consequence of this i don't think

4974
02:59:45,110 --> 02:59:43,680
i have um i i don't see these two groups

4975
02:59:47,830 --> 02:59:45,120
talking

4976
02:59:48,710 --> 02:59:47,840
yeah so it's not disclosure per se it's

4977
02:59:49,750 --> 02:59:48,720
more

4978
02:59:53,910 --> 02:59:49,760
the

4979
02:59:56,070 --> 02:59:53,920
disclosure slash research by removing

4980
02:59:57,590 --> 02:59:56,080
the stigma well research

4981
02:59:59,590 --> 02:59:57,600
remember research has already been

4982
03:00:02,309 --> 02:59:59,600
happening so um

4983
03:00:04,230 --> 03:00:02,319
i think it's removing the stigma and i

4984
03:00:04,950 --> 03:00:04,240
mean honestly i think that's that's a

4985
03:00:06,150 --> 03:00:04,960
good

4986
03:00:09,670 --> 03:00:06,160
one

4987
03:00:11,510 --> 03:00:09,680
a twitter account that's

4988
03:00:13,910 --> 03:00:11,520
oh link in the description does the

4989
03:00:16,550 --> 03:00:13,920
catholic church have their own term

4990
03:00:19,269 --> 03:00:16,560
slash practice slash training for remote

4991
03:00:23,349 --> 03:00:19,279
viewing and if so does it predate the us

4992
03:00:26,150 --> 03:00:23,359
governments and how put offs programmed

4993
03:00:28,630 --> 03:00:26,160
that's a good question they actually do

4994
03:00:31,910 --> 03:00:28,640
and if you it's not called remote

4995
03:00:34,309 --> 03:00:31,920
viewing um but it's called discernment

4996
03:00:35,910 --> 03:00:34,319
and so um

4997
03:00:37,590 --> 03:00:35,920
we've talked about people in the

4998
03:00:39,429 --> 03:00:37,600
invisible college a lot of them being

4999
03:00:40,710 --> 03:00:39,439
catholics i don't know if all of them

5000
03:00:42,309 --> 03:00:40,720
are but

5001
03:00:45,110 --> 03:00:42,319
most of them are

5002
03:00:46,469 --> 03:00:45,120
and so um one of those people is jacques

5003
03:00:49,269 --> 03:00:46,479
jacques valet

5004
03:00:51,110 --> 03:00:49,279
and when i first met him and throughout

5005
03:00:54,070 --> 03:00:51,120
my

5006
03:00:56,389 --> 03:00:54,080
collegial friendship with him um

5007
03:01:01,510 --> 03:00:59,110
said to use your discernment and this is

5008
03:01:04,389 --> 03:01:01,520
something that must be developed okay

5009
03:01:06,150 --> 03:01:04,399
and so that caused me um to recognize

5010
03:01:07,750 --> 03:01:06,160
the term as being from the catholic

5011
03:01:10,389 --> 03:01:07,760
tradition because that's you know

5012
03:01:12,550 --> 03:01:10,399
obviously but something that we we use a

5013
03:01:14,469 --> 03:01:12,560
lot but we don't know what it means and

5014
03:01:16,790 --> 03:01:14,479
what you know what's the context of this

5015
03:01:19,269 --> 03:01:16,800
in catholic history so you go back and

5016
03:01:21,830 --> 03:01:19,279
you look at where this develops and

5017
03:01:25,269 --> 03:01:21,840
basically it's this recognition that

5018
03:01:28,070 --> 03:01:25,279
humans have the ability of to see things

5019
03:01:30,309 --> 03:01:28,080
that you can't you know humans in

5020
03:01:32,950 --> 03:01:30,319
general some humans have it more than

5021
03:01:34,550 --> 03:01:32,960
other humans to be able to see or have

5022
03:01:36,150 --> 03:01:34,560
information about

5023
03:01:37,910 --> 03:01:36,160
people or events

5024
03:01:40,309 --> 03:01:37,920
um that

5025
03:01:41,590 --> 03:01:40,319
you couldn't like get in a normal way

5026
03:01:43,910 --> 03:01:41,600
through the five senses or something

5027
03:01:44,870 --> 03:01:43,920
like that and that's called discernment

5028
03:01:47,110 --> 03:01:44,880
and

5029
03:01:48,870 --> 03:01:47,120
so yeah so i think that cultivating a

5030
03:01:50,150 --> 03:01:48,880
spiritual practice

5031
03:01:51,429 --> 03:01:50,160
is what

5032
03:01:55,190 --> 03:01:51,439
helps one

5033
03:01:57,590 --> 03:01:55,200
discern um the remote viewing community

5034
03:01:58,790 --> 03:01:57,600
gave specific instructions for how to

5035
03:02:01,190 --> 03:01:58,800
cultivate

5036
03:02:03,830 --> 03:02:01,200
uh the prac you know the ability of

5037
03:02:05,349 --> 03:02:03,840
remote viewing um in my opinion though

5038
03:02:09,269 --> 03:02:05,359
they left out

5039
03:02:12,309 --> 03:02:09,279
some of that the ways in which you can

5040
03:02:13,349 --> 03:02:12,319
not go crazy and do it at the same time

5041
03:02:14,469 --> 03:02:13,359
because i think there's a point where

5042
03:02:16,230 --> 03:02:14,479
you're gonna get a lot of information

5043
03:02:18,469 --> 03:02:16,240
that you don't quite understand don't

5044
03:02:20,710 --> 03:02:18,479
know how to deal with and you know i

5045
03:02:23,590 --> 03:02:20,720
think that spiritual traditions have

5046
03:02:25,510 --> 03:02:23,600
things in place to help people with that

5047
03:02:27,750 --> 03:02:25,520
um so

5048
03:02:30,230 --> 03:02:27,760
you know the catholic church has its own

5049
03:02:31,670 --> 03:02:30,240
you know internal group of you know if

5050
03:02:33,269 --> 03:02:31,680
these things start to happen to you

5051
03:02:34,630 --> 03:02:33,279
think this way in buddhism you have the

5052
03:02:37,190 --> 03:02:34,640
same thing if you start to see these

5053
03:02:39,510 --> 03:02:37,200
things or if you start to have you know

5054
03:02:42,469 --> 03:02:39,520
uh recognition of events that are going

5055
03:02:45,030 --> 03:02:42,479
to happen um ignore them or something

5056
03:02:47,830 --> 03:02:45,040
like that you see what i'm saying so

5057
03:02:49,269 --> 03:02:47,840
to utilize these talents for gain

5058
03:02:50,070 --> 03:02:49,279
material gain

5059
03:02:53,190 --> 03:02:50,080
or

5060
03:02:55,190 --> 03:02:53,200
um

5061
03:02:56,070 --> 03:02:55,200
i think that this is this is something

5062
03:02:58,469 --> 03:02:56,080
that

5063
03:03:00,469 --> 03:02:58,479
one in my personal opinion this is not

5064
03:03:02,150 --> 03:03:00,479
me speaking as a professor but in my

5065
03:03:03,030 --> 03:03:02,160
personal opinion i wouldn't really do

5066
03:03:03,830 --> 03:03:03,040
that

5067
03:03:06,230 --> 03:03:03,840
um

5068
03:03:08,230 --> 03:03:06,240
but that's how remote viewing in these

5069
03:03:10,150 --> 03:03:08,240
communities has been used not

5070
03:03:12,630 --> 03:03:10,160
necessarily for personal

5071
03:03:14,230 --> 03:03:12,640
gain but um

5072
03:03:15,670 --> 03:03:14,240
you know for

5073
03:03:18,950 --> 03:03:15,680
obviously

5074
03:03:20,950 --> 03:03:18,960
uh some corporations use it to assess

5075
03:03:23,349 --> 03:03:20,960
what other corporations are doing

5076
03:03:24,550 --> 03:03:23,359
um obviously if national security if

5077
03:03:26,230 --> 03:03:24,560
this was something that national

5078
03:03:28,790 --> 03:03:26,240
security would want to obviously

5079
03:03:30,389 --> 03:03:28,800
russians have been doing remote viewing

5080
03:03:33,590 --> 03:03:30,399
you know uh the americans have been

5081
03:03:35,590 --> 03:03:33,600
doing it as well uh so yeah so

5082
03:03:37,990 --> 03:03:35,600
yeah so i think that you see this within

5083
03:03:40,630 --> 03:03:38,000
different religious traditions but

5084
03:03:41,670 --> 03:03:40,640
the contexts are different and you know

5085
03:03:47,190 --> 03:03:41,680
the

5086
03:03:48,469 --> 03:03:47,200
consequences are different as well

5087
03:03:51,030 --> 03:03:48,479
when i was speaking to this guy named

5088
03:03:52,389 --> 03:03:51,040
thomas campbell not on ufos in fact i

5089
03:03:54,550 --> 03:03:52,399
don't think he has an opinion on them as

5090
03:03:56,870 --> 03:03:54,560
far as i can tell but he has a theory

5091
03:03:59,269 --> 03:03:56,880
called my big toe quote unquote

5092
03:04:01,750 --> 03:03:59,279
he said that people have the ability to

5093
03:04:03,190 --> 03:04:01,760
do remote viewing and i think you called

5094
03:04:04,950 --> 03:04:03,200
it by

5095
03:04:06,150 --> 03:04:04,960
location or the catholic yeah by

5096
03:04:07,349 --> 03:04:06,160
location

5097
03:04:09,590 --> 03:04:07,359
right which is some form of astral

5098
03:04:11,830 --> 03:04:09,600
projection and he said but it can only

5099
03:04:15,030 --> 03:04:11,840
be used for non-selfish purposes and

5100
03:04:16,550 --> 03:04:15,040
that if you wanted to win the lottery or

5101
03:04:17,510 --> 03:04:16,560
prove it to someone else which is a

5102
03:04:18,550 --> 03:04:17,520
strange

5103
03:04:20,230 --> 03:04:18,560
way of phrasing it because then it

5104
03:04:22,870 --> 03:04:20,240
sounds like it's unfalsifiable if what

5105
03:04:24,870 --> 03:04:22,880
you're doing is trying to bolster your

5106
03:04:26,950 --> 03:04:24,880
ego in some sense then it doesn't work

5107
03:04:28,630 --> 03:04:26,960
so you're saying that actually no there

5108
03:04:30,630 --> 03:04:28,640
are cases occur where

5109
03:04:33,030 --> 03:04:30,640
you're aware of or you believe to be the

5110
03:04:35,030 --> 03:04:33,040
case that some corporations have used it

5111
03:04:37,190 --> 03:04:35,040
for profit and

5112
03:04:39,269 --> 03:04:37,200
perhaps some nefarious purpose on parts

5113
03:04:41,030 --> 03:04:39,279
of some governments or no you're not

5114
03:04:43,110 --> 03:04:41,040
saying that well no not necessarily

5115
03:04:45,269 --> 03:04:43,120
nefarious if it's for national security

5116
03:04:47,429 --> 03:04:45,279
i mean they're doing it in order to gain

5117
03:04:48,630 --> 03:04:47,439
you know information to protect

5118
03:04:50,870 --> 03:04:48,640
americans or

5119
03:04:52,950 --> 03:04:50,880
russians to protect russians i mean you

5120
03:04:54,950 --> 03:04:52,960
know that's their job so

5121
03:04:55,830 --> 03:04:54,960
they saw that this actually works so

5122
03:04:59,510 --> 03:04:55,840
they

5123
03:05:01,990 --> 03:04:59,520
tried to utilize it um ed may um who i

5124
03:05:03,429 --> 03:05:02,000
met at the rice conference uh the

5125
03:05:05,030 --> 03:05:03,439
archives of the impossible conference

5126
03:05:06,070 --> 03:05:05,040
had a great presentation on remote

5127
03:05:07,750 --> 03:05:06,080
viewing

5128
03:05:09,670 --> 03:05:07,760
and um

5129
03:05:11,990 --> 03:05:09,680
he would be the person to talk to but

5130
03:05:14,150 --> 03:05:12,000
yeah within the catholic church there is

5131
03:05:16,469 --> 03:05:14,160
something like that but it's it's

5132
03:05:20,710 --> 03:05:16,479
completely

5133
03:05:23,429 --> 03:05:20,720
devoid of this this use right and

5134
03:05:26,309 --> 03:05:23,439
also um i've seen kind of these kinds of

5135
03:05:28,550 --> 03:05:26,319
practices in buddhism as well but again

5136
03:05:29,670 --> 03:05:28,560
totally devoid of this type of

5137
03:05:36,630 --> 03:05:29,680
let's do

5138
03:05:39,110 --> 03:05:36,640
this to find out what our competitors

5139
03:05:40,950 --> 03:05:39,120
think so we could get the upper hand

5140
03:05:43,110 --> 03:05:40,960
i see okay so the last one was pretty

5141
03:05:45,190 --> 03:05:43,120
much just like a personal question a

5142
03:05:47,590 --> 03:05:45,200
personal for myself i've been lucky

5143
03:05:50,309 --> 03:05:47,600
enough on toe on the podcast to get some

5144
03:05:52,469 --> 03:05:50,319
people who have said no to virtually

5145
03:05:55,429 --> 03:05:52,479
every other place and i'm not sure why

5146
03:05:56,950 --> 03:05:55,439
and jim semivan said that

5147
03:05:58,389 --> 03:05:56,960
there's the sentiment behind the scenes

5148
03:06:00,230 --> 03:05:58,399
that toe is

5149
03:06:01,990 --> 03:06:00,240
a quote-unquote scientific podcast and

5150
03:06:05,429 --> 03:06:02,000
if one wants to talk about the

5151
03:06:06,710 --> 03:06:05,439
phenomenon in some technical manner then

5152
03:06:08,630 --> 03:06:06,720
perhaps it's the place to go i don't

5153
03:06:10,870 --> 03:06:08,640
know if i'd buy that because well for

5154
03:06:12,710 --> 03:06:10,880
various reasons but

5155
03:06:14,710 --> 03:06:12,720
some people

5156
03:06:16,790 --> 03:06:14,720
for example on reddit have called it

5157
03:06:18,309 --> 03:06:16,800
distoster like there's disclosure like

5158
03:06:20,150 --> 03:06:18,319
somehow

5159
03:06:21,670 --> 03:06:20,160
yeah right right maybe i'll make a merch

5160
03:06:22,710 --> 03:06:21,680
item of that

5161
03:06:24,150 --> 03:06:22,720
so

5162
03:06:25,750 --> 03:06:24,160
that is cool

5163
03:06:27,190 --> 03:06:25,760
is that something that could happen i'm

5164
03:06:28,870 --> 03:06:27,200
not saying that that has happened but

5165
03:06:31,349 --> 03:06:28,880
does that occur is there a

5166
03:06:34,150 --> 03:06:31,359
behind-the-scenes kind of um discourse

5167
03:06:35,750 --> 03:06:34,160
about them and um you know who's good to

5168
03:06:37,349 --> 03:06:35,760
go on and who's good not to go on and

5169
03:06:40,309 --> 03:06:37,359
that type of thing for

5170
03:06:42,070 --> 03:06:40,319
people who um talk about things that are

5171
03:06:45,670 --> 03:06:42,080
like ufos and things like that is that

5172
03:06:49,110 --> 03:06:47,269
yeah

5173
03:06:52,790 --> 03:06:49,120
right i think so

5174
03:06:54,230 --> 03:06:52,800
and um i think that um

5175
03:06:55,990 --> 03:06:54,240
i mean we talked about this when we

5176
03:06:58,309 --> 03:06:56,000
talked about you know if we're talking

5177
03:07:01,590 --> 03:06:58,319
about something like ufos and the you

5178
03:07:03,990 --> 03:07:01,600
know if in fact ufos are say

5179
03:07:04,790 --> 03:07:04,000
extraterrestrial um

5180
03:07:07,110 --> 03:07:04,800
or

5181
03:07:09,269 --> 03:07:07,120
if in fact they are non-human

5182
03:07:11,190 --> 03:07:09,279
intelligence okay that we just have not

5183
03:07:13,110 --> 03:07:11,200
discovered yet because you know whales

5184
03:07:15,349 --> 03:07:13,120
have non-human intelligence and such we

5185
03:07:16,950 --> 03:07:15,359
know about them okay but if this is some

5186
03:07:18,070 --> 03:07:16,960
kind of new form of non-human

5187
03:07:21,110 --> 03:07:18,080
intelligence

5188
03:07:24,469 --> 03:07:21,120
that is able to travel our skies

5189
03:07:26,469 --> 03:07:24,479
and um this would be something that the

5190
03:07:28,230 --> 03:07:26,479
military would absolutely want to know

5191
03:07:31,190 --> 03:07:28,240
about and so

5192
03:07:33,190 --> 03:07:31,200
that makes discussion of it

5193
03:07:34,630 --> 03:07:33,200
highly um

5194
03:07:35,510 --> 03:07:34,640
surveilled

5195
03:07:36,790 --> 03:07:35,520
okay

5196
03:07:39,670 --> 03:07:36,800
and

5197
03:07:42,710 --> 03:07:39,680
up for potential management therefore

5198
03:07:45,590 --> 03:07:42,720
podcasts um you'd have to assess use

5199
03:07:47,750 --> 03:07:45,600
your discernment and assess and vet you

5200
03:07:49,349 --> 03:07:47,760
know peoples whose people

5201
03:07:51,110 --> 03:07:49,359
or podcasters

5202
03:07:53,030 --> 03:07:51,120
um you know

5203
03:07:54,870 --> 03:07:53,040
what message are they putting out there

5204
03:07:56,630 --> 03:07:54,880
and do you want your work to align with

5205
03:07:58,550 --> 03:07:56,640
that message or not that kind of thing

5206
03:08:01,429 --> 03:07:58,560
so there's no i mean there's no real

5207
03:08:04,630 --> 03:08:01,439
kind of like um non-biased media even

5208
03:08:07,030 --> 03:08:04,640
podcasters have their biases so we so i

5209
03:08:09,269 --> 03:08:07,040
think that a lot of people who are at

5210
03:08:12,870 --> 03:08:09,279
least my colleagues who are working on

5211
03:08:15,269 --> 03:08:12,880
the topic of uaps and ufos generally are

5212
03:08:17,510 --> 03:08:15,279
academics or they're associated with

5213
03:08:20,070 --> 03:08:17,520
programs that have to do with academia

5214
03:08:21,830 --> 03:08:20,080
um or government programs and so they're

5215
03:08:24,469 --> 03:08:21,840
going to be pretty careful about where

5216
03:08:25,990 --> 03:08:24,479
they go to spread their information um

5217
03:08:27,830 --> 03:08:26,000
if they're people who've been doing this

5218
03:08:29,269 --> 03:08:27,840
for a very long period of time say like

5219
03:08:31,510 --> 03:08:29,279
jacques valet

5220
03:08:33,110 --> 03:08:31,520
um i think that his message is pretty

5221
03:08:36,630 --> 03:08:33,120
clear has been out there for a long time

5222
03:08:39,110 --> 03:08:36,640
so it can't be used or manipulated right

5223
03:08:41,830 --> 03:08:39,120
and i think that he's safe to go on

5224
03:08:43,190 --> 03:08:41,840
anybody's podcast frankly um but other

5225
03:08:45,830 --> 03:08:43,200
people whose work

5226
03:08:48,150 --> 03:08:45,840
is maybe different than valets and whose

5227
03:08:49,269 --> 03:08:48,160
work has not been out there for years

5228
03:08:50,870 --> 03:08:49,279
and i think they have to be pretty

5229
03:08:53,429 --> 03:08:50,880
careful

5230
03:08:55,910 --> 03:08:53,439
if you were me what would you do to help

5231
03:08:58,389 --> 03:08:55,920
safeguard against being used for

5232
03:09:00,950 --> 03:08:58,399
disinformation

5233
03:09:03,110 --> 03:09:00,960
right so that's actually hard to do um i

5234
03:09:04,950 --> 03:09:03,120
think that you have to be pretty clear

5235
03:09:06,469 --> 03:09:04,960
in your questions and you have to be

5236
03:09:07,349 --> 03:09:06,479
pretty clear

5237
03:09:11,750 --> 03:09:07,359
in

5238
03:09:13,510 --> 03:09:11,760
control the people you're you know who

5239
03:09:16,070 --> 03:09:13,520
you have on as a guest

5240
03:09:18,550 --> 03:09:16,080
and a lot of times you there are

5241
03:09:19,590 --> 03:09:18,560
unintended consequences of what you put

5242
03:09:21,830 --> 03:09:19,600
out there

5243
03:09:23,750 --> 03:09:21,840
um like that happens to me so i'll have

5244
03:09:25,910 --> 03:09:23,760
i'll have said something and then it

5245
03:09:26,710 --> 03:09:25,920
will be used in a completely different

5246
03:09:29,030 --> 03:09:26,720
way

5247
03:09:31,910 --> 03:09:29,040
and there's really nothing we could do

5248
03:09:33,910 --> 03:09:31,920
about that crew so it's a public sphere

5249
03:09:37,269 --> 03:09:33,920
that you're putting this message out

5250
03:09:39,670 --> 03:09:37,279
in and then what happens is that beyond

5251
03:09:42,070 --> 03:09:39,680
your own intentions those things then

5252
03:09:44,389 --> 03:09:42,080
get completely changed and used

5253
03:09:46,469 --> 03:09:44,399
i've actually written about this but um

5254
03:09:47,910 --> 03:09:46,479
not specifically for ufos but definitely

5255
03:09:48,710 --> 03:09:47,920
for religion

5256
03:09:51,190 --> 03:09:48,720
um

5257
03:09:55,269 --> 03:09:51,200
you know the uh the raid

5258
03:09:57,670 --> 03:09:55,279
you know the monk the immolating monk um

5259
03:09:58,389 --> 03:09:57,680
kwang duke i can't remember his full

5260
03:10:02,469 --> 03:09:58,399
name

5261
03:10:06,070 --> 03:10:02,479
was

5262
03:10:09,590 --> 03:10:06,080
um

5263
03:10:11,349 --> 03:10:09,600
you know during the vietnam war

5264
03:10:14,309 --> 03:10:11,359
or beli i believe maybe directly

5265
03:10:16,630 --> 03:10:14,319
afterwards well his image was then taken

5266
03:10:19,590 --> 03:10:16,640
up by this band called rage against the

5267
03:10:22,389 --> 03:10:19,600
machine and put on a cd cover of theirs

5268
03:10:23,870 --> 03:10:22,399
and then became the image kind of

5269
03:10:26,309 --> 03:10:23,880
came became

5270
03:10:28,469 --> 03:10:26,319
decontextualized from the actual reason

5271
03:10:29,590 --> 03:10:28,479
why this man actually did this was to

5272
03:10:32,550 --> 03:10:29,600
protest

5273
03:10:35,030 --> 03:10:32,560
um suppression of buddhism by the

5274
03:10:37,910 --> 03:10:35,040
communists via the vietnamese government

5275
03:10:40,630 --> 03:10:37,920
and so um

5276
03:10:42,870 --> 03:10:40,640
so then people actually have tattoos of

5277
03:10:44,870 --> 03:10:42,880
it and about i'd say it was like maybe

5278
03:10:46,070 --> 03:10:44,880
12 years ago one of my students had a

5279
03:10:48,150 --> 03:10:46,080
tattoo

5280
03:10:49,190 --> 03:10:48,160
and i said you know i said the name of

5281
03:10:50,150 --> 03:10:49,200
the monk

5282
03:10:51,910 --> 03:10:50,160
and

5283
03:10:53,510 --> 03:10:51,920
he said he didn't even know

5284
03:10:55,750 --> 03:10:53,520
he just thought it was a cool image but

5285
03:10:57,990 --> 03:10:55,760
he had tattooed on his body so i guess

5286
03:10:59,750 --> 03:10:58,000
my point is this is that you know

5287
03:11:02,550 --> 03:10:59,760
that man did this

5288
03:11:03,349 --> 03:11:02,560
important act for a very specific reason

5289
03:11:06,950 --> 03:11:03,359
but

5290
03:11:08,950 --> 03:11:06,960
image is out there we all we've all seen

5291
03:11:11,110 --> 03:11:08,960
the image you see what i'm saying

5292
03:11:13,030 --> 03:11:11,120
yeah it reminds me of teenagers who have

5293
03:11:14,950 --> 03:11:13,040
the shirt that has the nirvana logo and

5294
03:11:16,710 --> 03:11:14,960
even says nirvana and then you play them

5295
03:11:18,150 --> 03:11:16,720
teen spirit or smells like teen spirit

5296
03:11:22,070 --> 03:11:18,160
and you say who sings this to it i don't

5297
03:11:24,309 --> 03:11:22,080
know i've never heard this man before

5298
03:11:26,230 --> 03:11:24,319
that's pretty funny so the way that i

5299
03:11:28,469 --> 03:11:26,240
try to safeguard against it is firstly i

5300
03:11:30,469 --> 03:11:28,479
don't think i can and secondly is with

5301
03:11:32,790 --> 03:11:30,479
regard to intent i hope that this is the

5302
03:11:35,030 --> 03:11:32,800
case i don't consider myself to be

5303
03:11:36,550 --> 03:11:35,040
well i'm i'm a selfish person but

5304
03:11:39,110 --> 03:11:36,560
hopefully this is the case where i'm

5305
03:11:41,110 --> 03:11:39,120
just an extremely curious person and

5306
03:11:43,510 --> 03:11:41,120
much like yourself much like researchers

5307
03:11:44,950 --> 03:11:43,520
in general and so i have many questions

5308
03:11:46,309 --> 03:11:44,960
and when it comes to a physics person

5309
03:11:47,830 --> 03:11:46,319
i'll just say i have a professor here

5310
03:11:49,750 --> 03:11:47,840
and it's like office hours and so i'm

5311
03:11:50,870 --> 03:11:49,760
just saying i don't understand this part

5312
03:11:52,389 --> 03:11:50,880
how did you get from here to here how

5313
03:11:54,070 --> 03:11:52,399
does this make sense with this and then

5314
03:11:55,830 --> 03:11:54,080
they try and explain it to me and where

5315
03:11:58,070 --> 03:11:55,840
i don't understand i ask questions and

5316
03:12:00,230 --> 03:11:58,080
so i do something similar with the ufo

5317
03:12:01,510 --> 03:12:00,240
guests where i'm simply asking questions

5318
03:12:04,150 --> 03:12:01,520
but then i also feel like that's a

5319
03:12:06,389 --> 03:12:04,160
cop-out if i was to say

5320
03:12:08,309 --> 03:12:06,399
hey i ask questions and then it's up to

5321
03:12:09,830 --> 03:12:08,319
the audience to quote unquote decide i

5322
03:12:11,990 --> 03:12:09,840
don't like that i think that when people

5323
03:12:14,790 --> 03:12:12,000
say that they're abdicating their

5324
03:12:16,950 --> 03:12:14,800
responsibility of putting out quality

5325
03:12:19,110 --> 03:12:16,960
information so i don't know how to solve

5326
03:12:23,990 --> 03:12:19,120
that

5327
03:12:30,950 --> 03:12:24,000
like i said look what happened to uh

5328
03:12:34,550 --> 03:12:32,630
i think that's it i took up so much of

5329
03:12:35,590 --> 03:12:34,560
your time it's so generous

5330
03:12:37,349 --> 03:12:35,600
oh yeah

5331
03:12:39,670 --> 03:12:37,359
thank you so much yeah thanks for

5332
03:12:42,150 --> 03:12:39,680
inviting me on your show

5333
03:12:45,269 --> 03:12:42,160
professor thank you so much for spending

5334
03:12:47,429 --> 03:12:45,279
maybe three hours at least with me it's

5335
03:12:53,830 --> 03:12:47,439
a blessing absolutely it was wonderful

5336
03:12:57,510 --> 03:12:55,830
the podcast is now finished if you'd

5337
03:13:00,710 --> 03:12:57,520
like to support conversations like this

5338
03:13:04,790 --> 03:13:00,720
then do consider going to patreon.com

5339
03:13:07,429 --> 03:13:04,800
c-u-r-t j-a-i-m-u-n-g-a-l

5340
03:13:09,269 --> 03:13:07,439
that is kurt jaimungle it's support from

5341
03:13:11,030 --> 03:13:09,279
the patrons and from the sponsors that